The Labour Party

Mëtal Bikër said:
Of course not, but that doesn't mean you're disqualified from beign classed as antisemitic when voicing antisemitic sentiments, either does it.
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You made yourself look a bit silly with what you posted originally regarding Marx not being Jewish because of his/his family’s religious beliefs. @urban genie has saved me the bother so I’ll leave it there.
 
Machiavelli said:
You made yourself look a bit silly with what you posted originally regarding Marx not being Jewish because of his/his family’s religious beliefs. @urban genie has saved me the bother so I’ll leave it there.
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No, as usual you've misinterpreted the meaning. You said "Marx was Jewish"

Well what did you mean? Jewish heritage or practicing the Jewish religion? Antisemitism isn't something that gets absolved because of your heritage. Saying antisemitic shit makes you antisemitic.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
On the Jewish Question is quite considerably regarded as an antisemitic work, though.
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And is also equally argued thst it isn't but marx crudely worded and ironic critique of Bruno Bauer and is infact a intended to support the cause of jewish emancipation amd equality at the time of writing.

Also it is viewed by many as an anachronism as all writers and philosophers of that time and of jewish decent wrote in similar tone amd would be coonsiddered anti-semetic by todays standards.

Anyway @Machiavelli mentioned he was jewish, you said he wasn't and proved wrong, whether he was antisemetic too is another topic.
 
urban genie said:
And is also equally argued thst it isn't but marx crudely worded and ironic critique of Bruno Bauer and is infact a intended to support the cause of jewish emancipation amd equality at the time of writing.

Also it is viewed by many as an anachronism as all writers and philosophers of that time and of jewish decent wrote in similar tone amd would be coonsiddered anti-semetic by todays standards.

Anyway @Machiavelli mentioned he was jewish, you said he wasn't and proved wrong, whether he was antisemetic too is another topic.
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Again, you've missed the point he said he was "Jewish". Marx was Jewish, but wasn't Jewish. See the confusion?

I'm Jewish, but not Jewish, for example. I was just clarifying.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Again, you've missed the point he said he was "Jewish". Marx was Jewish, but wasn't Jewish. See the confusion?

I'm Jewish, but not Jewish, for example. I was just clarifying.
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He was Jewish ffs. You tried to make being Jewish something to do with Judaism. I know lots of secular Jews who haven’t practiced Judaism a single day of their life but still identify as Jewish.
I’m still unsure why the Anti Semitic leaders of the Labour Party would want to install Marxist policies when Karl Marx was Jewish?
 
Machiavelli said:
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He was Jewish ffs. You tried to make being Jewish something to do with Judaism. I know lots of secular Jews who haven’t practiced Judaism a single day of their life but still identify as Jewish.
I’m still unsure why the Anti Semitic leaders of the Labour Party would want to install Marxist policies when Karl Marx was Jewish?
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You're the one insinuating Marx's antisemitic opinions are valid opinions.

Any reason why?
 
Machiavelli said:
Erm, no I’m not. Either show me where I’ve said that or politely do one.
I said Marx was a Jew and you started waffling about religion in an attempt to disprove he was Jewish. Lol.
Give up, accept you were wrong and stop digging.
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Antisemitism is criticism of the Jewish religion and of Jewish people. Karl Marx was heavily critical of the Jewish religion and had no respect for Jewish Culture.

"What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.”

You think Marx can't be an antisemite or hold antisemitic views because he was born to ethnic jewish parents? And this is a man whose philosophies you admire? This was the basis of your original comment, was it not? I was disproving the idea that he cannot be an antisemite because you said he's also "Jewish". He was Jewish (ethnicity), but not Jewish (faith), something you failed to clarify which. What part of this aren't you able to understand? Jews can be antisemites.
 
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Mëtal Bikër said:
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Antisemitism is criticism of the Jewish religion and of Jewish people. Karl Marx was heavily critical of the Jewish religion and had no respect for Jewish Culture.

"What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.”

Marx can't be an antisemite or hold antisemitic views because he was born to ethnic jewish parents? And this is a man whose philosophy you admire? This was the basis of your original comment, was it not?
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Who said I admire his philosophy? Again I’ll ask you to show me where I’ve said that?

So that’s two things I’m waiting for you to provide quotes where I’ve said things you accused me of, the above and the following;
Mëtal Bikër said:
You're the one insinuating Marx's antisemitic opinions are valid opinions.
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I’m waiting.
Jewish still doesn’t mean Judaism!
 
Machiavelli said:
Who said I admire his philosophy? Again I’ll ask you to show me where I’ve said that?

So that’s two things I’m waiting for you to provide quotes where I’ve said things you accused me of, the above and the following;

I’m waiting.
Jewish still doesn’t mean Judaism!
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Yes, it can. And Jewish people can be antisemitic, as Karl Marx clearly was. And you are defending him, quite passionately.

Machiavelli said:
But Marx was a Jew, I thought Labour were anti semites?
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And an antisemite. Now did you mean ethnic jew or of the Jewish faith? Because I took it that you meant of the Jewish faith, and I pointed out he wasn't, he was an atheist, baptised as a Lutheran aged 6, and grew up hating the Jewish faith which he was very vocal about. That makes him an antisemite.
 
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Mëtal Bikër said:
Yes, it can. And Jewish people can be antisemitic, as Karl Marx clearly was. And you are defending him, quite passionately.
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That’s 3 things now.
Show me where I’m defending him! As a matter of fact don’t bother anyone following our exchange can see what I’m dealing with.
I’ll leave you to your constant deflection away from anything discussed.
Jewish still doesn’t mean Judaism.
 
Machiavelli said:
That’s 3 things now.
Show me where I’m defending him! As a matter of fact don’t bother anyone following our exchange can see what I’m dealing with.
I’ll leave you to your constant deflection away from anything discussed.
Jewish still doesn’t mean Judaism.
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Well if you'd give me time to post the quotes... Read my last message.
And take it to PM. This has nothing to do with Labour.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Care to elaborate?
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You have the wrong definition of the word.

Hating the Jewish faith as a religion is not antisemitic, hating Jewish people is.

Marx wasn’t antisemitic as he WAS Jewish. In fact you claiming that he was Jewish because he didn’t believe in the Jewish faith is a very dodgy point to make and completely untrue.

You can be Atheist and Jewish.

The biggest mistake people make when defining bigotry and racism is forgetting the Jews are a race too.
 
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Ban-jani said:
You have the wrong definition of the word.

Hating the Jewish faith as a religion is not antisemitic, hating Jewish people is.

Marx wasn’t antisemitic as he WAS Jewish. In fact you claiming that he was Jewish because he didn’t believe in the Jewish faith is a very dodgy point to make and completely untrue.

You can’t be Atheist and Jewish.

The biggest mistake people make when defining bigotry and racism is forgetting the Jews are a race too.
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Again, not making that distinction. Where the hell have you gotten that from!?

He was stating that Marx, being a Jew, meant that Labour members who support Marx, couldn't be antisemitic because Marx wasn't antisemitic on the grounds he was also jewish. Antisemitism is hatred of both the faith and/or the people. Marx hated the faith and made many antisemitic statements about religious Jews. Being of Jewish decent did not mean he didn't or couldn't say things that were antisemitic, or that many Marxist hold antisemitic views based on Marx's comments.

You can be atheist and Jewish; that is an absolutely ridiculous and offensive statement to make, and also goes against entirely what point you were making. In many ways "Jewish" has replaced "Hebrew" as the ethnic term for many Jews, because "Jewish" is an ethnoreligious term. You're talking to someone who's part-ethnically Jewish here, mate. You can be an ethnic Jew and not follow the faith, or be an ethnic Jew and follow the Jewish religion. Marx was the former, I was making that distinction, that Marx wasn't a religious Jew, which is how the post appeared to me. The fact he was an ethnic jew is irrelevent to the fact he made antisemitic statements, nor does it absolve him from for being seen as making antisemitic statements for doing so.
 
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Changing the subject somewhat.This week in Spain another Leftish political party was formed.
If you are left of centre you can choose between
PSOE
Podemos
Izquierda Unida
Más País

The latest of which is a breakaway from Podemos.

My point in mentioning this is that in the UK there is one Left of centre party that represents all of the views expressed by the 4 Spanish parties, from Blair to Lenin if you like. And I think this broad church is a good thing.
In Spain these 4 parties could have formed a coalition government but couldn't agree. So another election looms.
 
George Hannah said:
Correct, Marx hated religion with an unrelenting passion; he saw the eradication of religion as the absolute sine qua non of a “just” socialist society. That's where he and most of the founders of the Labour Party parted company.
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You know I do think Marx was essentially correct in much of his thinking. Capitalism is probably ultimately unsustainable when the gulf between the haves and have nots is too big and the have nots are great in number. This will inevitably come about I think as we inexorably progress towards a world where robots and AI have eliminated nearly all jobs. Another method of redistribution of wealth will be needed. I've thought so for the past 35 years, and incidentally way before I knew anything about Marx!

I also think he was right about religion. It's a load of poppycock which served a purpose hundreds of years ago - "fear of God" etc - but which has no place in modern society. Far from being a ludicrous but nevertheless harmless pastime, it is the root cause of all kinds of problems and indeed deaths on an enormous scale. It does far more harm than good and ultimately we should get rid of it.

Marx' problem was that he was so insightful, his ideas were perhaps 250 years ahead of his time. Nowadays most people in the west lead comfortable lives and the numbers who want to rise up in a cultural Revolution are few.
 
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