The Labour Party

[metalblue]

It would cost an insane amount of money to get the same class sizes and facilities in state schools.

There's nothing at all aspirational about the majority of kids being excluded from a pathway to many of the best paid jobs in society. The link between private schools and top positions in the law etc., is truly shocking.

I'd go a step further, and limit access to the better university courses and publicly appointed positions, so that it more closely reflected the percentage of kids going to private schools.

Giving an intelligent kid, from a poorer background, the knowledge that they would be able to go to Oxford and become a High Court judge based on their ability, rather than their parents finances, is truly aspirational.

It’s a common misconception about private education in the UK, elite private school kids are more likely to have those top jobs (and these are the parents who can afford the ~£50k a year fees and won’t care about VAT) but the “regular” private schools whose fees are far more modest by comparison (~15k a year) - the output of those schools are as likely to be doctors in our hospitals or teachers as those from state school (perhaps more likely in the sense they received a “better” education due to class size).

To your point about the cost of improving state education - education needs a complete rethink; not everyone is academic we should be doing practical courses for those who want to be tradespeople from the GCSE year onwards, math lessons should be about quotes, English about writing business letters, then teach them the skills to do the job - save them going to college - they can be put earning (and paying taxes) much sooner. This will reduce the cost of getting class size down for the more academic kids and then we make that investment in their education - it’s not a zero sum game, the better educated the more (in principle) they pay in taxes. That’s aspirational for our young. But yeah nothing like as aspirational as raising taxes on private schools eh? maintains the status quo while rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic is the way to go.

Oh and Oxbridge already makes it easier for kids from disadvantaged backgrounds to get in compared to those that went to private schools.

 

[TinFoilHat]

The party that protects the workers and the downtrodden hence the name "Labour"

They should just change their name to Purple Conservative Party. They offer nothing to the people that created them to protect their interests. The vast majority of Purple Tory MPs only care about themselves. Any member that says that to their face is expelled using false slurs against them.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

It’s a common misconception about private education in the UK, elite private school kids are more likely to have those top jobs (and these are the parents who can afford the ~£50k a year fees and won’t care about VAT) but the “regular” private schools whose fees are far more modest by comparison (~15k a year) - the output of those schools are as likely to be doctors in our hospitals or teachers as those from state school (perhaps more likely in the sense they received a “better” education due to class size).

To your point about the cost of improving state education - education needs a complete rethink; not everyone is academic we should be doing practical courses for those who want to be tradespeople from the GCSE year onwards, math lessons should be about quotes, English about writing business letters, then teach them the skills to do the job - save them going to college - they can be put earning (and paying taxes) much sooner. This will reduce the cost of getting class size down for the more academic kids and then we make that investment in their education - it’s not a zero sum game, the better educated the more (in principle) they pay in taxes. That’s aspirational for our young. But yeah nothing like as aspirational as raising taxes on private schools eh? maintains the status quo while rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic is the way to go.

Oh and Oxbridge already makes it easier for kids from disadvantaged backgrounds to get in compared to those that went to private schools.

How much do you get paid to lobby for private schools? ;)

 

[metalblue]

I don't think you can pin it (the advantages) down to one or two things. You obviously have better funded facilities, smaller class sizes and more attractive pay/ conditions for staff (so they can pick the best). Also though, the fact that as paying customers the parents are literally more invested in their kids education, or have at least thoroughly outsourced it to folk who are. Contrast that with the portion of the class in state schools whose parents don't give a fuck, view education as cheap childcare and then blame teachers for their kids being little cunts.

I don’t think the pay is any better but they are less likely to get punched…probably

 

[metalblue]

How much do you get paid to lobby for private schools? ;)

Nowt mate. It’s part of my community pay back sentence ;)

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

It’s a common misconception about private education in the UK, elite private school kids are more likely to have those top jobs (and these are the parents who can afford the ~£50k a year fees and won’t care about VAT) but the “regular” private schools whose fees are far more modest by comparison (~15k a year) - the output of those schools are as likely to be doctors in our hospitals or teachers as those from state school (perhaps more likely in the sense they received a “better” education due to class size).

To your point about the cost of improving state education - education needs a complete rethink; not everyone is academic we should be doing practical courses for those who want to be tradespeople from the GCSE year onwards, math lessons should be about quotes, English about writing business letters, then teach them the skills to do the job - save them going to college - they can be put earning (and paying taxes) much sooner. This will reduce the cost of getting class size down for the more academic kids and then we make that investment in their education - it’s not a zero sum game, the better educated the more (in principle) they pay in taxes. That’s aspirational for our young. But yeah nothing like as aspirational as raising taxes on private schools eh? maintains the status quo while rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic is the way to go.

Oh and Oxbridge already makes it easier for kids from disadvantaged backgrounds to get in compared to those that went to private schools.

I agree education needs a rethink and it should be about making children be the best they can be, at whatever it is they’re doing.
On the Oxbridge makes it easier, state schools make up about 70% of Oxbridge entrants which, on the face of it, looks quite good. Then when you see that less than 6% of children go to private schools, it doesn’t look quite so good.
20 Prime Ministers went to Eton and 30 to Oxford whilst we’ve had SIX Labour Prime Ministers ever..

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I agree education needs a rethink and it should be about making children be the best they can be, at whatever it is they’re doing.
On the Oxbridge makes it easier, state schools make up about 70% of Oxbridge entrants which, on the face of it, looks quite good. Then when you see that less than 6% of children go to private schools, it doesn’t look quite so good.
20 Prime Ministers went to Eton and 30 to Oxford whilst we’ve had SIX Labour Prime Ministers ever..

I agree that privately educated folk have an advantage and the stats you quote bear that out. Without wanting to sound too Jordan Peterson, what do we want to address - equality of opportunity or equality of outcome?

 

[BrianW]

Finland manages without any private schools at all, and has one of the best, if not the best, education systems in Europe.

Private education is part of the pernicious class system which holds this country back and prevents its development as a 21st-century state. It comes down to a belief that some people (and their children) are 'special' and should not be required to mingle with plebs like us. Until we develop a more egalitarian society we will never maximise the talent and potential of our people and will remain, effectively, clinging to 19th-century fantasy England. We shall certainly never match the productivity and social harmony of more advanced nations.

 

[TinFoilHat]

I agree that privately educated folk have an advantage and the stats you quote bear that out. Without wanting to sound too Jordan Peterson, what do we want to address - equality of opportunity or equality of outcome?

Off topic here.

I can't listen to Peterson because he sounds like Kermit the Frog.

 

[Vic]

It’s a common misconception about private education in the UK, elite private school kids are more likely to have those top jobs (and these are the parents who can afford the ~£50k a year fees and won’t care about VAT) but the “regular” private schools whose fees are far more modest by comparison (~15k a year) - the output of those schools are as likely to be doctors in our hospitals or teachers as those from state school (perhaps more likely in the sense they received a “better” education due to class size).

To your point about the cost of improving state education - education needs a complete rethink; not everyone is academic we should be doing practical courses for those who want to be tradespeople from the GCSE year onwards, math lessons should be about quotes, English about writing business letters, then teach them the skills to do the job - save them going to college - they can be put earning (and paying taxes) much sooner. This will reduce the cost of getting class size down for the more academic kids and then we make that investment in their education - it’s not a zero sum game, the better educated the more (in principle) they pay in taxes. That’s aspirational for our young. But yeah nothing like as aspirational as raising taxes on private schools eh? maintains the status quo while rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic is the way to go.

Oh and Oxbridge already makes it easier for kids from disadvantaged backgrounds to get in compared to those that went to private schools.

So you disagree with Birnalsingh that schools should be teaching knowledge to disadvantaged children and not learning skills....

(That should be a good fight within the Tory ranks.)

 

[Vic]

Nothing wrong with the notion of giving the teachers a bonus etc but I really can’t get my head around the logic of removing VAT breaks on private education.

Labour plan to give teachers £2,400 to stop them quitting

The party would also make it compulsory for new joiners to have a formal teaching qualification.

www.bbc.co.uk

An entirely non-aspirational policy - the proverbial socialist school race where one kid has a broken leg so we break everyone’s leg to make it “fair”. The argument is it gives kids a head start - so why don’t we aspire to make it easier to get in to (pay for it ahead of income tax to make it more accessible) or aspire to make state schools better if it’s such a benefit? Most parents who sent their kids to private school go without holidetc to make it happen, just about afford it now - the ones who won’t care will just be able to pay up the next x years of education and beat the tax hike anyway.

I’m excited to see how they differentiate between private school fees and uni school fees. Both paid for education by the individual. Got court cases written all over this if they try and drawer a distinction between the two.

VAT? It's charitable status that's the issue, so that also means taking away the private schools' 80% business rates relief.

Maximum uni fees are set by the government. If VAT were payable they could just reduce the maximum by 16.66% then charge 20% VAT and it would cost the same. Case closed.

 

[Vic]

The graph that first made me an advocate for better state school funding was the one that showed educational ability at age 4 and what happened subsequently. Pupils with lower ability but from higher social class overtook in attainment the more able pupils from lower social class somewhere around age 8.

 

[metalblue]

VAT? It's charitable status that's the issue, so that also means taking away the private schools' 80% business rates relief.

Maximum uni fees are set by the government. If VAT were payable they could just reduce the maximum by 16.66% then charge 20% VAT and it would cost the same. Case closed.

As a Labour activist knocking on doors it’s good to see you across the detail of your only remaining socialist policy.

Let me help you out for your next door knock… You will charge VAT on fees, believed it will generate ~£2bn a year, and the exception on business rates will raise around another £110m.

You’re welcome

Case re-opened.

 

[threespires]

Contrast that with the portion of the class in state schools whose parents don't give a fuck, view education as cheap childcare and then blame teachers for their kids being little cunts.

I'm not a big fan of those folks either but they're probably not as dangerous to society as the parents who can't be arsed to look after their kids so use boarding schools as an expensive form of utterly dysfunctional childcare that then turns their kids not into little C's who might do a bit of twocing but into absolute massive C's who will cause carnage at a national level.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I'm not a big fan of those folks with but they're probably not as dangerous to society as the parents who can't be arsed to look after their kids so use boarding schools as an expensive form of utterly dysfunctional childcare that then turns their kids not into little C's who might do a bit of twocing but into absolute massive C's who will cause carnage at a national level.

Touché
Advantage threespires.

 

[threespires]

Touché
Advantage threespires.

Stop being a big stirrer!

 

[Damocles]

The party that protects the workers and the downtrodden hence the name "Labour"

They should just change their name to Purple Conservative Party. They offer nothing to the people that created them to protect their interests. The vast majority of Purple Tory MPs only care about themselves. Any member that says that to their face is expelled using false slurs against them.

Downtrodden is relative.

As the economics of the country and class system have moved, so has Labour. Downtrodden used to mean the factory, mine and other workers because that was a major part of our population. Now it means the socially disenfranchised, often educated and often financially secure workers.

Parties go where the votes are, they are not your friends.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

As a Labour activist knocking on doors it’s good to see you across the detail of your only remaining socialist policy.

Let me help you out for your next door knock… You will charge VAT on fees, believed it will generate ~£2bn a year, and the exception on business rates will raise around another £110m.

You’re welcome

Case re-opened.

If your old mate Nigel Farage hadn't gone to a public school, I doubt he'd ever have risen to be such a malignant influence on British public life.

Public schools take dog shit human beings (in this case a nazi sympathising teenager) and give them a life-long sense of entitlement so that even the wastrels, school bullies and dunces, have a chance of taking a large steaming dump on society.

Lawrence Fox is another notable ****.

Boris Johnson another.

Without public schools we might actually have leaders who don't have all the worst traits combined.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Downtrodden is relative.

As the economics of the country and class system have moved, so has Labour. Downtrodden used to mean the factory, mine and other workers because that was a major part of our population. Now it means the socially disenfranchised, often educated and often financially secure workers.

Parties go where the votes are, they are not your friends.

Is this code for racists?

 

[threespires]

All that notwithstanding, the biggest advantage private schooled children have is that they don’t have to follow the national curriculum, as all state schools do. Hence the focus on achievement in ALL areas, particularly in the areas that will set people up with a good chance of performing well in the world.

Not following the national curriculum also means you don't have to implement whatever imbecilic unproven idea the latest bunch of morons in charge of the DfE have decided to inflict on our kids under the guise of education policy.