sjk2008 said:If Ajax beat Dortmund, then it doesn't matter what goal difference you have. 6pts off Madrid & Dortmund will see you through in 2nd.
moomba said:sjk2008 said:If Ajax beat Dortmund, then it doesn't matter what goal difference you have. 6pts off Madrid & Dortmund will see you through in 2nd.
Not quite. If the above happens, and Ajax and Real draw it will go down to goal difference, goals, away goals, and finally UEFA co-efficient. I suspect we'd probably lose out on goal difference.
But if Ajax doesn't beat Dortmund a 2 goal win tonight will guarantee that we finish ahead of Real if the event of a tie between the two of us. A 1-0 or 2-1 win will have the same effect.
sjk2008 said:JoeMercer'sWay said:As far as the CL goes, the only way realistically of us going through is for us to beat Dortmund and Real by 2 clear goals, and for Ajax to beat Dortmund and draw with Real, that would leave everyone on 8 points and send us through on the head to head against Dortmund and Real I think, though the head to head's would make it very confusing.
Forget all the 'by 2 goals" nonsence, JMW.
If Ajax beat Dortmund, then it doesn't matter what goal difference you have. 6pts off Madrid & Dortmund will see you through in 2nd.
JoeMercer'sWay said:sjk2008 said:JoeMercer'sWay said:As far as the CL goes, the only way realistically of us going through is for us to beat Dortmund and Real by 2 clear goals, and for Ajax to beat Dortmund and draw with Real, that would leave everyone on 8 points and send us through on the head to head against Dortmund and Real I think, though the head to head's would make it very confusing.
Forget all the 'by 2 goals" nonsence, JMW.
If Ajax beat Dortmund, then it doesn't matter what goal difference you have. 6pts off Madrid & Dortmund will see you through in 2nd.
let's look at this and see if we can get our heads round it:
Currently:
1) Dortmund +2 8.
2) R Madrid +3 7.
---------------------------
3) Ajax -2 4.
4) MCFC -3 2.
If we win by a 1 goal margin that is less than 3-2 then Madrid win on head to head against us I think. If it's 3-2 then it goes down to GD and stuff I believe if we tie. a 2 goal margin wins us the head to head, if Ajax beat Dortmund by anything other than 1-0 they win the head to head, if it's 1-0 it goes down to GD.
so if we beat RM 3-2 and Ajax beat Dortmund 1-0 the table looks like:
1) Dortmund +1 8.
2) RM +2 7.
---------------------
3) Ajax -1 7.
4) MCFC -2 5.
If we win by 2 clear goals and Ajax win by a 1 goal margin greater than a 1-0 win:
1) Dortmund +1 8.
2) RM +1 7.
-------------------
3) Ajax -1 7.
4) MCFC -1 5.
Important change.
Onto the final round of matches. RM won 4-1 in Ajax so they will win that head to head unless Ajax match or better a 4-1 win in the Bernabeu, unlikely. However they could draw. City need to beat Dortmund, doing so would automatically win them the head to head. This would leave us and Dortmund on zero GD, Real on +1 and Ajax -1. This is where it gets unprecedented and very difficult to work out, I'm not sure whether after applying GD whether we settle with Real as 1st and Ajax as out and compare Dortmund/MCFC head to head, leaving City 2nd, or goals scored in the 2 matches, leaving City 2nd, or if it's another process.
Either way Dortmund would have to lose twice and Real/Ajax draw, if Real win a game and Dortmund draw with Ajax we are out.
M18CTID said:JoeMercer'sWay said:sjk2008 said:Forget all the 'by 2 goals" nonsence, JMW.
If Ajax beat Dortmund, then it doesn't matter what goal difference you have. 6pts off Madrid & Dortmund will see you through in 2nd.
let's look at this and see if we can get our heads round it:
Currently:
1) Dortmund +2 8.
2) R Madrid +3 7.
---------------------------
3) Ajax -2 4.
4) MCFC -3 2.
If we win by a 1 goal margin that is less than 3-2 then Madrid win on head to head against us I think. If it's 3-2 then it goes down to GD and stuff I believe if we tie. a 2 goal margin wins us the head to head, if Ajax beat Dortmund by anything other than 1-0 they win the head to head, if it's 1-0 it goes down to GD.
so if we beat RM 3-2 and Ajax beat Dortmund 1-0 the table looks like:
1) Dortmund +1 8.
2) RM +2 7.
---------------------
3) Ajax -1 7.
4) MCFC -2 5.
If we win by 2 clear goals and Ajax win by a 1 goal margin greater than a 1-0 win:
1) Dortmund +1 8.
2) RM +1 7.
-------------------
3) Ajax -1 7.
4) MCFC -1 5.
Important change.
Onto the final round of matches. RM won 4-1 in Ajax so they will win that head to head unless Ajax match or better a 4-1 win in the Bernabeu, unlikely. However they could draw. City need to beat Dortmund, doing so would automatically win them the head to head. This would leave us and Dortmund on zero GD, Real on +1 and Ajax -1. This is where it gets unprecedented and very difficult to work out, I'm not sure whether after applying GD whether we settle with Real as 1st and Ajax as out and compare Dortmund/MCFC head to head, leaving City 2nd, or goals scored in the 2 matches, leaving City 2nd, or if it's another process.
Either way Dortmund would have to lose twice and Real/Ajax draw, if Real win a game and Dortmund draw with Ajax we are out.
Hmmmmm....pretty sure that if we beat Madrid by only 1 clear goal in a 1-0 or 2-1 win then we win the head-to-head by virtue of having scored more away goals. From last season's rules on tied teams. Apply this to a scenario whereby it comes down to a head-to-head between us and Madrid and we've beaten them either 1-0 or 2-1 in tonight's match:
1.higher number of points obtained in the group matches played among the teams in question - Tie
2.superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams in question - Tie
3.higher number of goals scored in the group matches played among the teams in question - Tie
4.higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches played among the teams in question - We win so no need to apply points 5-8 below
5.If, after applying criteria 1) to 4) to several teams, two teams still have an equal ranking, the criteria 1) to 4) will be reapplied to determine the ranking of these teams;
6.superior goal difference from all group matches played;
7.higher number of goals scored from all group matches played;
8.higher number of coefficient points accumulated by the club in question, as well as its association, over the previous five seasons.
No you talk a lot of sensesjk2008 said:I’ve been on this forum for a while now, as many of you will know. I’ve seen how pissed off you get after (rare) defeats and I understand that sometimes, in the heat of the moment, people can say things that, the next day, they wont mean. In contrast, I see the reactions to some of your big wins and how many people’s opinions of players/staff and the like are immediately inflated, sometimes rightly and sometimes wrongly.
I put that down however, to the fickle nature of football fans in general, and not just with City.
However, I’ll be honest here though, in that I am amazed at some of your thoughts on tonight’s game, your potential CL campaign outcome, the upcoming game against Chelsea and the Europa League.
A couple of years ago, when Spurs nicked the CL spot from you after ‘that’ Crouch goal, this place was not happy, and understandably so. After such a rapid & prominent rise since Sheikh Mansour took over, CL qualification was the immediate aim, long before a potential League Title.
Fast forward a year and you got exactly what you wanted, by finishing 3rd.
Manchester City in the Champions League – who’d have thought it? Fuck me, 10 years ago you were playing the likes of Wycombe, Mansfield and even my Oldham!
Draws haven’t been kind as we all know, and to be honest, the performances haven’t been there either. BUT, whilst you still have a chance to qualify for the KO rounds this season, and since it’s only fucking November and the PL title race hasn’t even got going yet, I cannot fathom some of the reactions on here this last few days, in particular to the question posed the other day, “Would you accept a defeat against Real, for a win at Chelsea”?
Now surely it’s not just me here, but whilst you can still qualify for the CL, why the fuck wouldn’t you want to go all guns blazing tonight, against the most successful team in European Cup history, on your home patch, knowing a win could keep you in the hunt for the KO rounds. There’s plenty of things to consider here...
1. Ajax definitely have a chance of beating Dortmund
2. Equally, City have the squad to beat Madrid
3. It’s November, you lose to Chelsea and, at worst, you’re 2pts behind United. Fuck me, they bottled an 8pt lead last year in April, what the fuck is a 2pt advantage in November, especially when they have to visit The Etihad in a few weeks.
I guess what I am saying, is that I can’t believe the majority of people on here would happily abandon any CL hopes now, if a guaranteed win against Chelsea was available on Sunday. Fair enough, if we were in February and you were 3pts behind in the PL, then I could perhaps understand it a little.
But this is the Champions League, something 10 years ago you would have laughed at the possibility of participating in, and you’re playing Real Madrid, at home, whilst qualification is STILL possible. Even if Dortmund did pick something up in Amsterdam tonight, think of the extra confidence your team would get by turning Real Madrid over. A defeat to Chelsea on Sunday is as far away from the end of the world as possible. Imagine losing to Madrid tonight, only to see that Ajax had beaten Dortmund?
Lastly, whilst I agree that the PL is the big focus again this season, surely a Europa League stint would be useful in it’s own ways. Just look how much Co-efficiency points Atletico Madrid earned last season when they won the competition. They’re on the brink of Pot 1 as it stands.
You have two very good players for every position and I see no reason why you cannot challenge on both fronts, even by keeping the PL as the priority.
Lastly, from a personal point of view, I’ve always thought of City fans as a good bunch. Especially when you factor in just how arrogant those ***** across the road have been all these years. I guess I just thought I’d never see you turn your noses up at competitions like the Europa League now you’ve got some success behind you.
There’s a lot of positives to take out of a win against Madrid tonight, even if Dortmund beat Ajax.
It’s not the end of the world if you lose to Chelsea on Sunday.
*Cue potential Rag comments.
JoeMercer'sWay said:M18CTID said:JoeMercer'sWay said:let's look at this and see if we can get our heads round it:
Currently:
1) Dortmund +2 8.
2) R Madrid +3 7.
---------------------------
3) Ajax -2 4.
4) MCFC -3 2.
If we win by a 1 goal margin that is less than 3-2 then Madrid win on head to head against us I think. If it's 3-2 then it goes down to GD and stuff I believe if we tie. a 2 goal margin wins us the head to head, if Ajax beat Dortmund by anything other than 1-0 they win the head to head, if it's 1-0 it goes down to GD.
so if we beat RM 3-2 and Ajax beat Dortmund 1-0 the table looks like:
1) Dortmund +1 8.
2) RM +2 7.
---------------------
3) Ajax -1 7.
4) MCFC -2 5.
If we win by 2 clear goals and Ajax win by a 1 goal margin greater than a 1-0 win:
1) Dortmund +1 8.
2) RM +1 7.
-------------------
3) Ajax -1 7.
4) MCFC -1 5.
Important change.
Onto the final round of matches. RM won 4-1 in Ajax so they will win that head to head unless Ajax match or better a 4-1 win in the Bernabeu, unlikely. However they could draw. City need to beat Dortmund, doing so would automatically win them the head to head. This would leave us and Dortmund on zero GD, Real on +1 and Ajax -1. This is where it gets unprecedented and very difficult to work out, I'm not sure whether after applying GD whether we settle with Real as 1st and Ajax as out and compare Dortmund/MCFC head to head, leaving City 2nd, or goals scored in the 2 matches, leaving City 2nd, or if it's another process.
Either way Dortmund would have to lose twice and Real/Ajax draw, if Real win a game and Dortmund draw with Ajax we are out.
Hmmmmm....pretty sure that if we beat Madrid by only 1 clear goal in a 1-0 or 2-1 win then we win the head-to-head by virtue of having scored more away goals. From last season's rules on tied teams. Apply this to a scenario whereby it comes down to a head-to-head between us and Madrid and we've beaten them either 1-0 or 2-1 in tonight's match:
1.higher number of points obtained in the group matches played among the teams in question - Tie
2.superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams in question - Tie
3.higher number of goals scored in the group matches played among the teams in question - Tie
4.higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches played among the teams in question - We win so no need to apply points 5-8 below
5.If, after applying criteria 1) to 4) to several teams, two teams still have an equal ranking, the criteria 1) to 4) will be reapplied to determine the ranking of these teams;
6.superior goal difference from all group matches played;
7.higher number of goals scored from all group matches played;
8.higher number of coefficient points accumulated by the club in question, as well as its association, over the previous five seasons.
yes sorry, wrong way round I got it, but the head to head with Madrid won't matter unless we beat them and Dortmund by a couple of goals because a 1 goal win would mean they win out of the 4 teams on GD if we all finish on 8 points.
End of the day we have to win twice, Dortmund have to lose twice and Madrid have to draw against Ajax.
JoeMercer'sWay said:M18CTID said:JoeMercer'sWay said:let's look at this and see if we can get our heads round it:
Currently:
1) Dortmund +2 8.
2) R Madrid +3 7.
---------------------------
3) Ajax -2 4.
4) MCFC -3 2.
If we win by a 1 goal margin that is less than 3-2 then Madrid win on head to head against us I think. If it's 3-2 then it goes down to GD and stuff I believe if we tie. a 2 goal margin wins us the head to head, if Ajax beat Dortmund by anything other than 1-0 they win the head to head, if it's 1-0 it goes down to GD.
so if we beat RM 3-2 and Ajax beat Dortmund 1-0 the table looks like:
1) Dortmund +1 8.
2) RM +2 7.
---------------------
3) Ajax -1 7.
4) MCFC -2 5.
If we win by 2 clear goals and Ajax win by a 1 goal margin greater than a 1-0 win:
1) Dortmund +1 8.
2) RM +1 7.
-------------------
3) Ajax -1 7.
4) MCFC -1 5.
Important change.
Onto the final round of matches. RM won 4-1 in Ajax so they will win that head to head unless Ajax match or better a 4-1 win in the Bernabeu, unlikely. However they could draw. City need to beat Dortmund, doing so would automatically win them the head to head. This would leave us and Dortmund on zero GD, Real on +1 and Ajax -1. This is where it gets unprecedented and very difficult to work out, I'm not sure whether after applying GD whether we settle with Real as 1st and Ajax as out and compare Dortmund/MCFC head to head, leaving City 2nd, or goals scored in the 2 matches, leaving City 2nd, or if it's another process.
Either way Dortmund would have to lose twice and Real/Ajax draw, if Real win a game and Dortmund draw with Ajax we are out.
Hmmmmm....pretty sure that if we beat Madrid by only 1 clear goal in a 1-0 or 2-1 win then we win the head-to-head by virtue of having scored more away goals. From last season's rules on tied teams. Apply this to a scenario whereby it comes down to a head-to-head between us and Madrid and we've beaten them either 1-0 or 2-1 in tonight's match:
1.higher number of points obtained in the group matches played among the teams in question - Tie
2.superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams in question - Tie
3.higher number of goals scored in the group matches played among the teams in question - Tie
4.higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches played among the teams in question - We win so no need to apply points 5-8 below
5.If, after applying criteria 1) to 4) to several teams, two teams still have an equal ranking, the criteria 1) to 4) will be reapplied to determine the ranking of these teams;
6.superior goal difference from all group matches played;
7.higher number of goals scored from all group matches played;
8.higher number of coefficient points accumulated by the club in question, as well as its association, over the previous five seasons.
yes sorry, wrong way round I got it, but the head to head with Madrid won't matter unless we beat them and Dortmund by a couple of goals because a 1 goal win would mean they win out of the 4 teams on GD if we all finish on 8 points.
End of the day we have to win twice, Dortmund have to lose twice and Madrid have to draw against Ajax.
sjk2008 said:JoeMercer'sWay said:M18CTID said:Hmmmmm....pretty sure that if we beat Madrid by only 1 clear goal in a 1-0 or 2-1 win then we win the head-to-head by virtue of having scored more away goals. From last season's rules on tied teams. Apply this to a scenario whereby it comes down to a head-to-head between us and Madrid and we've beaten them either 1-0 or 2-1 in tonight's match:
1.higher number of points obtained in the group matches played among the teams in question - Tie
2.superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams in question - Tie
3.higher number of goals scored in the group matches played among the teams in question - Tie
4.higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches played among the teams in question - We win so no need to apply points 5-8 below
5.If, after applying criteria 1) to 4) to several teams, two teams still have an equal ranking, the criteria 1) to 4) will be reapplied to determine the ranking of these teams;
6.superior goal difference from all group matches played;
7.higher number of goals scored from all group matches played;
8.higher number of coefficient points accumulated by the club in question, as well as its association, over the previous five seasons.
yes sorry, wrong way round I got it, but the head to head with Madrid won't matter unless we beat them and Dortmund by a couple of goals because a 1 goal win would mean they win out of the 4 teams on GD if we all finish on 8 points.
End of the day we have to win twice, Dortmund have to lose twice and Madrid have to draw against Ajax.
Not really. If Madrid beat Ajax (which they will), City will finish 2nd (providing you win twice and Dortmund lose twice, obviously).