The Population Problem

[chesterbells]

You can always drive to mid Wales or the Scottish highlands. Not many people in those places.

Yes, absolutely. I was really talking about England rather than Britain, but would agree fully about the highlands and parts of Wales, or indeed Northern Ireland. UK density of 275 vs England’s 432 bears that out. I was making the point about how relatively crowded England was, which is the bit most of us live in, not the UK.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I’m glad Bob has broadened his horizons away from that dog shit Brexit thread finally but unfortunately he could have put his global open borders nonsense in there because that’s all this is.

Lol I was thinking exactly the same, it's a tough sell though, easier to convert City fans into Rags.

 

[Rascal]

Population density i suppose can be used to prove anything you want it to prove. If you think the UK has a high population density, you can prove that, if you think the UK is not overcrowded you can also prove that.

The following is taken from WIKI

" While population density is an objective measure of number of people living per unit area, overcrowding refers to people's psychological response to density. But, definitions of crowding used in statistical reporting and for administrative purposes are based on density measures and do not usually incorporate people’s perceptions of crowding."

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The interesting point is the Psychological response, if you are anti-immigration your psychological approach will be to prove that the population is overcrowding and that leads to a shortage of resources. (A UKIP/RW position) If you believe in open borders and immigration is not a problem, you can prove that overcrowding is not an issue and that resources are plentiful ( A Liberal position)

The Housing Act 1985 defines overcrowding as

324Definition of overcrowding.​

A dwelling is overcrowded for the purposes of this Part when the number of persons sleeping in the dwelling is such as to contravene—

(a)the standard specified in section 325 (the room standard), or

(b)the standard specified in section 326 (the space standard).

325The room standard.​

(1)The room standard is contravened when the number of persons sleeping in a dwelling and the number of rooms available as sleeping accommodation is such that two persons of opposite sexes who are not living together as [F1a married couple or civil partners] must sleep in the same room.

(2)For this purpose—

(a)children under the age of ten shall be left out of account, and

(b)a room is available as sleeping accommodation if it is of a type normally used in the locality either as a bedroom or as a living room.

326The space standard.​

(1)The space standard is contravened when the number of persons sleeping in a dwelling is in excess of the permitted number, having regard to the number and floor area of the rooms of the dwelling available as sleeping accommodation.

(2)For this purpose—

(a)no account shall be taken of a child under the age of one and a child aged one or over but under ten shall be reckoned as one-half of a unit, and

(b)a room is available as sleeping accommodation if it is of a type normally used in the locality either as a living room or as a bedroom.

(3)The permitted number of persons in relation to a dwelling is whichever is the less of—

(a)the number specified in Table I in relation to the number of rooms in the dwelling available as sleeping accommodation, and

(b)the aggregate for all such rooms in the dwelling of the numbers specified in column 2 of Table II in relation to each room of the floor area specified in column 1

No account shall be taken for the purposes of either Table of a room having a floor area of less than 50 square fee

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Again from WIKI

"Human overpopulation (or population overshoot) is a state in which there are too many people, consuming too much, for the environment to sustain (with food, drinkable water, breathable air, etc.)"


Every new technological age of advance, from the Agrarian to the industrial revolution has brought about population explosions because we can carry more food and eat more food because we grow more food.

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Can you argue then that overpopulation is lack of food. If so then the most densely populated parts of the planet are those with famines.

 

[Vic]

Population density i suppose can be used to prove anything you want it to prove. If you think the UK has a high population density, you can prove that, if you think the UK is not overcrowded you can also prove that.

The following is taken from WIKI

" While population density is an objective measure of number of people living per unit area, overcrowding refers to people's psychological response to density. But, definitions of crowding used in statistical reporting and for administrative purposes are based on density measures and do not usually incorporate people’s perceptions of crowding."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The interesting point is the Psychological response, if you are anti-immigration your psychological approach will be to prove that the population is overcrowding and that leads to a shortage of resources. (A UKIP/RW position) If you believe in open borders and immigration is not a problem, you can prove that overcrowding is not an issue and that resources are plentiful ( A Liberal position)

The Housing Act 1985 defines overcrowding as

324Definition of overcrowding.​

A dwelling is overcrowded for the purposes of this Part when the number of persons sleeping in the dwelling is such as to contravene—

(a)the standard specified in section 325 (the room standard), or

(b)the standard specified in section 326 (the space standard).

325The room standard.​

(1)The room standard is contravened when the number of persons sleeping in a dwelling and the number of rooms available as sleeping accommodation is such that two persons of opposite sexes who are not living together as [F1a married couple or civil partners] must sleep in the same room.

(2)For this purpose—

(a)children under the age of ten shall be left out of account, and

(b)a room is available as sleeping accommodation if it is of a type normally used in the locality either as a bedroom or as a living room.

326The space standard.​

(1)The space standard is contravened when the number of persons sleeping in a dwelling is in excess of the permitted number, having regard to the number and floor area of the rooms of the dwelling available as sleeping accommodation.

(2)For this purpose—

(a)no account shall be taken of a child under the age of one and a child aged one or over but under ten shall be reckoned as one-half of a unit, and

(b)a room is available as sleeping accommodation if it is of a type normally used in the locality either as a living room or as a bedroom.

(3)The permitted number of persons in relation to a dwelling is whichever is the less of—

(a)the number specified in Table I in relation to the number of rooms in the dwelling available as sleeping accommodation, and

(b)the aggregate for all such rooms in the dwelling of the numbers specified in column 2 of Table II in relation to each room of the floor area specified in column 1

No account shall be taken for the purposes of either Table of a room having a floor area of less than 50 square fee

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again from WIKI

"Human overpopulation (or population overshoot) is a state in which there are too many people, consuming too much, for the environment to sustain (with food, drinkable water, breathable air, etc.)"


Every new technological age of advance, from the Agrarian to the industrial revolution has brought about population explosions because we can carry more food and eat more food because we grow more food.

============================================================================================

Can you argue then that overpopulation is lack of food. If so then the most densely populated parts of the planet are those with famines.

Of course the Tories then use 30 year old minimum housing standards as a basis for penalising benefit recipients for having an extra bedroom.

And you can't consider land use and resources without knowing who owns the stuff. Tax the rich.

Anyway, the Lake District won't look the same when Brexit makes upland sheep farming unviable.

 

[west didsblue]

Yes, absolutely. I was really talking about England rather than Britain, but would agree fully about the highlands and parts of Wales, or indeed Northern Ireland. UK density of 275 vs England’s 432 bears that out. I was making the point about how relatively crowded England was, which is the bit most of us live in, not the UK.

Interestingly (or not as the case may be) nearly 40% of the population of England live in London and the metropolitan counties which cover just over 5% of the land. It works out that nearly 95% of England has the more or less the same population density as the UK as a whole.

Also, just 8.3% of England is actually built on and half of that is roads and other transport infrastructure. Just 1.1% of land actually contains residential property.

 

[hilts]

Frankly, it sounds like somewhere between Malthus and a final solution.

I’m much closer to @Rascal post than some sort of culling of the population, I do think Thanos got a bad rap mind:-)

 

[BobKowalski]

Is permanent growth possible in a world of finite resources?

Finite resources is a limitation that can be overcome by technology. Human ingenuity is infinite.

The idea that the wealth of the world was finite was the dominant belief in Europe, until the UK invented consumerism based on what you want rather than what you need.

It‘s the tea set argument. In practice, you only need one teapot, and set of cups, saucers etc, but you want one for everyday use, a nicer one for sit down meals with the family at the weekend and one for special occasions and guests.

I use to make coffee using a kettle, now I have a kettle and a one cup thingy just to make coffee or tea and a fancy coffee maker. We used to scoff at the French for paying for water in a bottle, now we pay for stuff we can get on tap. There is no limit to what we will buy.

There is a distinction between wealth and resources, but as a nation we used to run on coal, then oil and natural gas, now more tech like wind and solar or even nuclear. Cars that run on petrol will likely disappear over the next thirty years. The trick is to never stay still.

 

[hilts]

Interestingly (or not as the case may be) nearly 40% of the population of England live in London and the metropolitan counties which cover just over 5% of the land. It works out that nearly 95% of England has the more or less the same population density as the UK as a whole.

Also, just 8.3% of England is actually built on and half of that is roads and other transport infrastructure. Just 1.1% of land actually contains residential property.

Rather than disproving the point of over population this actually does the opposite. It’s like telling someone stuck in the 8th lane of the Freeway in LA that there are open roads in Wyoming. The history of human existence tells us people don’t evenly spread out. You get epicentres that spread making the enviroment of those who live within them worse.

Your main argument is still okay cities and towns might be a bit/a lot congested but there are plenty of fields floating about miles away from where people actually need to be. Let’s build shit on there and destroy that enviroment.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

Better pay and reduced working hours (these are shown to increase productivity) and all the positives that would bring towards reducing stress and increasing leisure time; welfare that is better spent on communities and not given to individual households (this doesn’t do anything for the wider society, it actually holds back those who don’t qualify for welfare but are struggling - low paid single men, for example); better and more wide ranging public services (including things like WiFi to all homes, just like we have gas and electricity); education on how to cook healthily and how to shop economically well; education on how to run a home well that creates better health and more spare cash; among many other things...

...would allow people to have more money free’d up to spend on themselves, less stress, better health in both body and mind (which would almost certainly reduce the complications that couples have with conceiving), and give them the opportunity to have children if they have none because they can’t afford to have them, or more children if they already have some, and to create a better home environment and therefore a better population as a result.

This would increase the population so that we wouldn’t have to rely on immigration for this to happen.

The thing is though, our cities are overpopulated. All the jobs are in and around the cities. So while we are no overpopulated per sq mile of our island, you only have to go down Princess Parkway or on the Met at 08:15 (in normal times) and see how we are overpopulated. Because this is part of what overpopulation means. Overpopulation isn’t just about having houses available, it is far more wide reaching than that.

 

[west didsblue]

Rather than disproving the point of over population this actually does the opposite. It’s like telling someone stuck in the 8th lane of the Freeway in LA that there are open roads in Wyoming. The history of human existence tells us people don’t evenly spread out. You get epicentres that spread making the enviroment of those who live within them worse.

Your main argument is still okay cities and towns might be a bit/a lot congested but there are plenty of fields floating about miles away from where people actually need to be. Let’s build shit on there and destroy that enviroment.

Another point worth noting is that although compared to most countries there are more towns and cities in England closer together, the actual population density of towns and cities isn't particularly high. As I said earlier there isn't a single UK city that would appear anywhere near the top of a world league table. If our cities seem congested it's more likely to be due to lack of investment in the appropriate infrastructure than due to too many buildings and people.