The Population Problem

[hilts]

Is permanent growth possible in a world of finite resources?

The system works for those who benefit the most, where it ends up is of no concern to them, they will be worm food by then. But other countries/cities are more densely populated so it’s all good.

The fact people want a bigger populace either here or globally is somewhat depressing but not unsurprising.

 

[chesterbells]

Population density as an issue is a bit of a red herring. Many cities have population densities of greater than 5000 per sq km with some much more which is ten times England’s average. There are some countries that are city states like Hong Kong and Singapore that seem to manage ok. South Korea and Taiwan are much more densely populated than England and they get by. In England we still manage to fit in the Lake District, Northumberland, Yorkshire Dales, Peak District, Dartmoor etc where population densities are still low. Of our cities, none are in the top 50 for population density unless you count the inner London boroughs by themselves. Places like Paris and Athens are much more densely populated than anywhere here. Taking an average over the whole country is a bit pointless.

Have you seen the building height and density of those tower blocks in places like Hong Kong? I wouldn’t want to live in one of those very small cubicle flats 25 storeys up.
Paris may well be densely populated, but it’s the capital of a county with approx the same size population and three times the land area. It’s urban areas are on average smaller than ours and the gaps between its urban areas are much bigger than those in England - it has a lot more countryside.
The other point I’d make is re tour mention of National Parks like the Peak or Lakes, ok, but it doesn’t take many visitors for those places to feel overcrowded - nothing like driving around rural France for sure.

 

[Vic]

The system works for those who benefit the most, where it ends up is of no concern to them, they will be worm food by then. But other countries/cities are more densely populated so it’s all good.

The fact people want a bigger populace either here or globally is somewhat depressing but not unsurprising.

You may have misunderstood. I was asking about economic growth, not population growth.

As observed above, most western nations would be reducing population without immigration (and the immigrants support the ageing and expensive indigenous population). But developing world nations (and their emigrants) are also having fewer children. Somewhere out there is an academic study about how the world population will stabilise around 10 billion max.

But the world will always be the same size, and raw materials are not all renewable, hence is permanent economic growth desirable?

 

[Vic]

Have you seen the building height and density of those tower blocks in places like Hong Kong? I wouldn’t want to live in one of those very small cubicle flats 25 storeys up.
Paris may well be densely populated, but it’s the capital of a county with approx the same size population and three times the land area. It’s urban areas are on average smaller than ours and the gaps between its urban areas are much bigger than those in England - it has a lot more countryside.
The other point I’d make is re tour mention of National Parks like the Peak or Lakes, ok, but it doesn’t take many visitors for those places to feel overcrowded - nothing like driving around rural France for sure.

Plenty of rural places in England with neither a lot of people or touristy things to look at.

 

[hilts]

You may have misunderstood. I was asking about economic growth, not population growth.

As observed above, most western nations would be reducing population without immigration (and the immigrants support the ageing and expensive indigenous population). But developing world nations (and their emigrants) are also having fewer children. Somewhere out there is an academic study about how the world population will stabilise around 10 billion max.

But the world will always be the same size, and raw materials are not all renewable, hence is permanent economic growth desirable?

When you take away population growth, debt and inflation how much actual growth is there in developed countries. If the world population stabilises at 10 billion once most countries have developed what happens then? As this population gets older and people have less children who will pay for their pensions and medical bills. Who will do the jobs that no one wants to bother with.

This is the problem you either have continual population growth for ever which isn’t possible nor desirable or find another way. Why wait and try when it’s at 10 billion?

The reason is there isn’t enough will to do so. This is human nature like the enviroment. People are content to pass it on. Then one day it isn’t a future problem anymore.

How much of the planet do we need to fuck up and how much of our own local enviroment do we need make worse. I would hope that people especially over the last 12 months have worked out what is actually important. They won’t though.

I’m glad Bob has broadened his horizons away from that dog shit Brexit thread finally but unfortunately he could have put his global open borders nonsense in there because that’s all this is.

 

[chesterbells]

Plenty of rural places in England with neither a lot of people or touristy things to look at.

There are, but not as plenty as many other developed countries.
There aren’t that many truly isolated places in England.
I’ve hired a car and driven around the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, France in recent years, and also over a longer time span have experience of both visiting and living in a number of other countries. It’s only when you then come back to England that you fully appreciate how relatively crowded it is and it feels.

 

[west didsblue]

There are, but not as plenty as many other developed countries.
There aren’t that many truly isolated places in England.
I’ve hired a car and driven around the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, France in recent years, and also over a longer time span have experience of both visiting and living in a number of other countries. It’s only when you then come back to England that you fully appreciate how relatively crowded it is and it feels.

You can always drive to mid Wales or the Scottish highlands. Not many people in those places.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

1. Holland
2. England
3. Belgium

I think.

Belgium has a higher density.

 

[hilts]

You can always drive to mid Wales or the Scottish highlands. Not many people in those places.

So you want a country to have cities and towns that expand outwards to the detriment of all those who live there and think that’s okay as they can get in a car and drive to somewhere open. Haha pmsl.

 

[Ban-jani]

Belgium has a higher density.

Not according to this-