The Rise of the Far Right

[Aphex]

I would love you to try one of those quiz's on your political bias and based on what you are saying, I predict you are more right than you think you are.

Funnily enough, I did one the other day. And that’s when I came out centre left. I did one 10 years ago on here when there was a big thread on it and guess what… I was centre left. I haven’t changed, THE LEFT have changed.

 

[Mike D]

Funnily enough, I did one the other day. And that’s when I came out centre left. I did one 10 years ago on here when there was a big thread on it and guess what… I was centre left. I haven’t changed, THE LEFT have changed.

That's all this shit you mention about gender and how transgender people identify themselves is very much a hot topic for the right. Something that is constantly prodded by the right wing media as being this big issue. Even Johnson is his desperation tried to smear Starmer with this notion during what has become his weekly hammering at PMQ's. Then there's Bannon who loves to talk about this and woke (another right wing slur no one can define)

Personally I don't give a shit about it I am unashamedly left wing and don't really have a strong opinion on it. Why would anyone gone to all that trouble to become a women just to get inside a female changing room.

 

[Aphex]

That's all this shit you mention about gender and how transgender people identify themselves is very much a hot topic for the right. Something that is constantly prodded by the right wing media as being this big issue. Even Johnson is his desperation tried to smear Starmer with this notion during what has become his weekly hammering at PMQ's. Then there's Bannon who loves to talk about this and woke (another right wing slur no one can define)

Personally I don't give a shit about it I am unashamedly left wing and don't really have a strong opinion on it. Why would anyone gone to all that trouble to become a women just to get inside a female changing room.

Most people aren’t bothered either. I’m happy for people to be whoever they want to be. The issue of putting kids on puberty blockers is for me shocking. How can they know the consequences of such a massive change in their bodies? And why is this high percentage of self identifying kids only on mostly democratic states? Anyone could almost think it was a fad fuelled by social media.

Anyway, can you answer the question I quoted to Rascal? It’s a bit like Schrödinger's cat isn’t it. And that’s why I can’t defend it.

 

[Rascal]

Hi @Rascal. No I don’t read the Telegraph, or any other paper really. I’m not going into all my political beliefs, but I’m against the death penalty and for the welfare state. As for teaching kids under nine (which is the Florida bill) to teach 100 different genders to kids.. no, unnecessarily confusing and harmful. Let me just say this:

what is more patriarchal and misogynistic than a man who now identifies as a woman telling a woman she can’t do anything about ‘her’ going into her private spaces?

That’s how far the left have gone. It’s almost full circle.

I am on the far left and i dont believe in any of that, people get the left mixed up with liberals all the time. the left is not liberal.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Most people aren’t bothered either. I’m happy for people to be whoever they want to be. The issue of putting kids on puberty blockers is for me shocking. How can they know the consequences of such a massive change in their bodies? And why is this high percentage of self identifying kids only on mostly democratic states? Anyone could almost think it was a fad fuelled by social media.

Anyway, can you answer the question I quoted to Rascal? It’s a bit like Schrödinger's cat isn’t it. And that’s why I can’t defend it.

The puberty blockers thing is a very small percentage of children expressing gender dysphoria. Most do not use medical intervention before they are adults.

The Tavistock Centre is the only childrens gender clinic in the UK (two branches, one in London and one in Leeds).

It is probably a bigger issue in America because of their system of privatised medicine.

It’s a complicated issue with young people involved and deserves to be treated with sensitivity for those affected and not as a political wedge issue that encourages abuse and vitriol.

It’s beyond politics and very little to do with social media. In fact that's a well worn myth and they used to say the same thing about homosexuality and Liberal tradional media.

There's also a flaw with your mainly Democratic countries claim, Thailand and the Philippines are not exactly healthy democracies. One has had military coups and the other replaced one corrupt dictator by the son of another.

And yet they have a long cultural tradition of openly gender non conforming people.

 

[Aphex]

The puberty blockers thing is a very small percentage of children expressing gender dysphoria. Most do not use medical intervention before they are adults.

The Tavistock Centre is the only childrens gender clinic in the UK (two branches, one in London and one in Leeds).

It is probably a bigger issue in America because of their system of privatised medicine.

It’s a complicated issue with young people involved and deserves to be treated with sensitivity for those affected and not as a political wedge issue that encourages abuse and vitriol.

It’s beyond politics and very little to do with social media. In fact that's a well worn myth and they used to say the same thing about homosexuality and Liberal tradional media.

There's also a flaw with your mainly Democratic countries claim, Thailand and the Philippines are not exactly healthy democracies. One has had military coups and the other replaced one corrupt dictator by the son of another.

And yet they have a long cultural tradition of openly gender non conforming people.

Well I’ll have to disagree with the social media aspect. Why can’t peoples sexuality be a private thing? Social media and ‘woke’ media is a platform. And they can’t wait to tell us.

I will read about Thailand. That’s not something I expected.

can you answer my question tho? No one has.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Well I’ll have to disagree with the social media aspect. Why can’t peoples sexuality be a private thing? Social media and ‘woke’ media is a platform. And they can’t wait to tell us.

I will read about Thailand. That’s not something I expected.

can you answer my question tho? No one has.

You are making a big claim without presenting evidence... this is something out of the GB News playbook.

What evidence can you supply to support your view that is due to social media?

Your views aren't unique and an earlier more articulated and sophisticated position has already been widely discredited.

Rapid-onset gender dysphoria controversy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You are asking why sexuality can't be a private thing whilst painting a broad brush about young people's medical treatments?

Is that meant to be ironic?

You asked a generalised question but there isn't a generalised answer. Generally it isn't any of your business if you want "people's sexuality to be private" you should also give them the respect of privacy for medical decisions.

But you can read this. Gillick comptence with informed consent and discussion with parents isn't a new thing and isn't unique to gender treatment in adolescent medicine.

In some instances it won't be appropriate for doctors to prescribe blockers and HRT treatment, in others it will be.

Health and care blog | Mills & Reeve

Mills & Reeve’s health and care law blog provides insight on the latest legal, policy and commercial issues affecting the NHS and the independent health sector.

www.mills-reeve.com

 

[Aphex]

You are making a big claim without presenting evidence... this is something out of the GB News playbook.

What evidence can you supply to support your view that is due to social media?

Your views aren't unique and an earlier more articulated and sophisticated position has already been widely discredited.

Rapid-onset gender dysphoria controversy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You are asking why sexuality can't be a private thing whilst painting a broad brush about young people's medical treatments?

Is that meant to be ironic?

You asked a generalised question but there isn't a generalised answer. Generally it isn't any of your business if you want "people's sexuality to be private" you should also give them the respect of privacy for medical decisions.

But you can read this. Gillick comptence with informed consent and discussion with parents isn't a new thing and isn't unique to gender treatment in adolescent medicine.

In some instances it won't be appropriate for doctors to prescribe blockers and HRT treatment, in others it will be.

Health and care blog | Mills & Reeve

Mills & Reeve’s health and care law blog provides insight on the latest legal, policy and commercial issues affecting the NHS and the independent health sector.

www.mills-reeve.com

There are plenty of articles on it. Take a look. You are not going to convince me that changing a young persons sex who can’t even vote is a ‘freedom of choice’ there are people out there that have reverted, and their decision to do so is through regret.

and I’ve been discredited by a more sophisticated argument? How can a personal belief be discredited? It’s my belief and no matter how many left wing publications you quote, it won’t change my mind on what I feel is a moral issue

and you still haven’t answered the question

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

There are plenty of articles on it. Take a look. You are not going to convince me that changing a young persons sex who can’t even vote is a ‘freedom of choice’ there are people out there that have reverted, and their decision to do so is through regret.

and I’ve been discredited by a more sophisticated argument? How can a personal belief be discredited? It’s my belief and no matter how many left wing publications you quote, it won’t change my mind on what I feel is a moral issue

and you still haven’t answered the question

You can read the article and inform yourself of the issues and you can do some research yourself on the wider aspects of gillick competence.

If you weren't already aware, this is the same legal test that covers issues like abortions for girls under the age of 18.

As you well know the right to vote has not been extended to 16 and 17 year olds because the Conservatives would disadvantage themselves. In Scotland because it has the opposite effect for the SNP they have, so it isn't a particularly compelling point.

People that regret gender identity treatment are a minority not the majority. I have talked about the Keira Bell case before and I'm not going to repeat myself in here. You can use the search function if you care enough.

You can have whatever personal belief you want, it doesn't have to be based in fact. To rely on that belief to campaign against others rights and aspects of their private lives it does have to be though.

I have given you an example of an almost identical belief that a professional claimed was based on science, that has been discredited because of their flawed methods of research and use of data.

I have answered your question, just not in the way you feel I should be compelled to. But why would I when I don't accept your false premise?

Finally. Left-wing organisations.

One is wikipedia, broadly liberal but not a website that encourages falsehoods, you post something on there that is shown to be untrue or without supporting evidence and if it gets reported it will get removed.

The other is a website of a law firm providing case analysis, it isn't a political article.

Do you realise how ridiculous you sound when you scape the bottom of the barrel for that line to throw at an article from a law firm?

 

[Aphex]

You can read the article and inform yourself of the issues and you can do some research yourself on the wider aspects of gillick competence.

If you weren't already aware, this is the same legal test that covers issues like abortions for girls under the age of 18.

As you well know the right to vote has not been extended to 16 and 17 year olds because the Conservatives would disadvantage themselves. In Scotland because it has the opposite effect for the SNP they have, so it isn't a particularly compelling point.

People that regret gender identity treatment are a minority not the majority. I have talked about the Keira Bell case before and I'm not going to repeat myself in here. You can use the search function if you care enough.

You can have whatever personal belief you want, it doesn't have to be based in fact. To rely on that belief to campaign against others rights and aspects of their private lives it does have to be though.

I have given you an example of an almost identical belief that a professional claimed was based on science, that has been discredited because of their flawed methods of research and use of data.

I have answered your question, just not in the way you feel I should be compelled to. But why would I when I don't accept your false premise?

Finally. Left-wing organisations.

One is wikipedia, broadly liberal but not a website that encourages falsehoods, you post something on there that is shown to be untrue or without supporting evidence and if it gets reported it will get removed.

The other is a website of a law firm providing case analysis, it isn't a political article.

Do you realise how ridiculous you sound when you scape the bottom of the barrel for that line to throw at an article from a law firm?

It amazes me that people on the left are so presumptuous. I’ve had countless discussions on here about politics and the moral questions are never answered. Mainstream media is left. That should tell you to read between the lines.

I’ve stated my beliefs on the subject and you aren’t going to change my mind via links and quotes that are seated in political ideology. Im not saying that both sides don’t have an ideology, but I’ve made my choice through my own moral questioning. I think we can both agree that that is a valid viewpoint

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

It amazes me that people on the left are so presumptuous. I’ve had countless discussions on here about politics and the moral questions are never answered. Mainstream media is left. That should tell you to read between the lines.

Which outlets? In the UK the only mainstream newspaper is the Mirror. That's traditional labour supporting "left" not communist or gender bending identity politics left.

Broadcast media? The BBC is broadly liberal not left-wing. The most left wing mainstream broadcast news outlet is Channel 4, an hour a day in the evening with a small update in the afternoon.

The fact that you believe mainstream media is all left-wing makes me question whether you understand the terms you use or whether you have started to detach yourself from reality.

I’ve stated my beliefs on the subject and you aren’t going to change my mind via links and quotes that are seated in political ideology. Im not saying that both sides don’t have an ideology, but I’ve made my choice through my own moral questioning. I think we can both agree that that is a valid viewpoint

I'm not interested in your non fact based views, nor what you think is moral reasoning. I produced a link with an excellent summary of the case from a law firm that explains all the issues in detail and that didn't stray from factual analysis to the author's own political opinions. But you come back with "WeLL iT iS LeFt WiNg IsN't It"?

Waste of time engaging with you and your faith based beliefs.

 

[Aphex]

Which outlets? In the UK the only mainstream newspaper is the Mirror. That's traditional labour supporting "left" not communist or gender bending identity politics left.

Broadcast media? The BBC is broadly liberal not left-wing. The most left wing mainstream broadcast news outlet is Channel 4, an hour a day in the evening with a small update in the afternoon.

The fact that you believe mainstream media is all left-wing makes me question whether you understand the terms you use or whether you have started to detach yourself from reality.



I'm not interested in your non fact based views, nor what you think is moral reasoning. I produced a link with an excellent summary of the case from a law firm that explains all the issues in detail and that didn't stray from factual analysis to the author's own political opinions. But you come back with "WeLL iT iS LeFt WiNg IsN't It"?

Waste of time engaging with you and your faith based beliefs.

And I’m not interested in your condescending style of debate. Faith Style? Hahaha. You obviously don’t like a different opinion to yourself. Have the left wing ideologues gone too far? Yes. Have the media been captured by the left? Yes.

and the feeling is mutual. No point in debating with someone that is so narcissistic that they start to get spiky when challenged.

blocked

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

And I’m not interested in your condescending style of debate. Faith Style? Hahaha. You obviously don’t like a different opinion to yourself. Have the left wing ideologues gone too far? Yes. Have the media been captured by the left? Yes.

and the feeling is mutual. No point in debating with someone that is so narcissistic that they start to get spiky when challenged.

blocked

Bizarre. Challenged? You probably are.

Present no evidence, label sources as left wing and stick fingers in ears when people question whether your views have any factual basis.

For a rant about about gender non conforming people and "woke" in a thread titled "rise of the far right" it is remarkably on topic. No wonder demagogues are on the up when people believe things without any evidence.

There's nothing narcissistic at all about that kind of behaviour is there? Nor am I the one inserting myself into discussions about other people's medical treatment because I know better. I know I don't and recognise it isn't any of my business.

 

[ROCKET80]

And I’m not interested in your condescending style of debate. Faith Style? Hahaha. You obviously don’t like a different opinion to yourself. Have the left wing ideologues gone too far? Yes. Have the media been captured by the left? Yes.

and the feeling is mutual. No point in debating with someone that is so narcissistic that they start to get spiky when challenged.

blocked

Which media outlets has been captured by the left?

It's already been said that The Mirror is the only main newspaper that can be considered 'left wing'.

The Guardian is liberal, supporting a New Labour style of centrist government.

The BBC is attacked by both the Left and Right.

I can't think of any others...Channel 4 maybe?

 

[Dax777]

Are you seeing both sides of all the arguments, though?

How about the the argument of "should we irreversibly damage the potential for all civilised life on Earth to continue by utterly destroying the climate we depend upon to live so that a tiny minority of shareholders can report continuing profit growth over the next few quarters?". Ultimately, people can both-sides things as much as they like, but the only place that's going to lead if more serious action isn't taken is everyone being very centrist and reasonable and intelligent and grown-up as they sweep past the corpses of their children as Sri Lanka goes underwater and millions of people are displaced across the globe as food supplies crash and the eco-system sucks itself into a plughole.

The only joy I can find in the situation is the idea of aliens beaming down in the future to a desolate planet only to find out that the human race spent the years facing the single most dangerous threat in it's entire history being stoked up about transgender people and Brexit and whether Johnny Depp hit his wife or not.

Did he?

 

[Dax777]

Funnily enough, I did one the other day. And that’s when I came out centre left. I did one 10 years ago on here when there was a big thread on it and guess what… I was centre left. I haven’t changed, THE LEFT have changed.

You sound like Bill Maher :)

 

[Aphex]

Which media outlets has been captured by the left?

It's already been said that The Mirror is the only main newspaper that can be considered 'left wing'.

The Guardian is liberal, supporting a New Labour style of centrist government.

The BBC is attacked by both the Left and Right.

I can't think of any others...Channel 4 maybe?

That’s the thing. People don’t read print media anymore. The current trend is online. There are lots of left media. Buzzfeed, Washington Post amongst others. Online is where media is consumed. According to Wiki their are plenty of left leaning UK papers as well.

the current Obi Wan Kenobi issue is a perfect example of blaming the fan base for racism even before it was released. Of course, you are going to get racists sending hateful comments, but their argument to any critique of canon is racism. This happens with all new poorly written tv shows. It’s unhelpful and frustrating that you can’t call Picard crap without being tagged a racist or a transphobe. In fact it’s tiresome.

 

[Aphex]

You sound like Bill Maher :)

Big fan. He manages to straddle both sides and be funny with it. And when did we stop learning how to laugh at ourselves? It’s a great life lesson Bill!

 

[ROCKET80]

That’s the thing. People don’t read print media anymore. The current trend is online. There are lots of left media. Buzzfeed, Washington Post amongst others. Online is where media is consumed. According to Wiki their are plenty of left leaning UK papers as well.

the current Obi Wan Kenobi issue is a perfect example of blaming the fan base for racism even before it was released. Of course, you are going to get racists sending hateful comments, but their argument to any critique of canon is racism. This happens with all new poorly written tv shows. It’s unhelpful and frustrating that you can’t call Picard crap without being tagged a racist or a transphobe. In fact it’s tiresome.

I think you may be confusing left wing politics with centrist social liberalism? There's plenty of Right Wing online media to counter any Left leaning content.

I don't see anybody blaming a fan base for racism, simply highlighting that a black actor has received dozens of racist messages.

I don't buy the comment that any criticism of canon is met with claims of racism either. Nor have I seen anyone branded a racist/transphobe for thinking a TV series is crap.

The ideals of left wing and right win politics hasn't changed. What has changed is social conservative values being replaced with more progressive/inclusive social liberal views. This is in part down to Christianity's influence on western vales having waned over the last century.

It's not 'PC Gone Mad' or 'Wokeism' it's just change. The older you are, or the more religious you are, the more resistant you are to it.

It's a bit like music, every generation thinks the following generations music is shit.

 

[Aphex]

I think you may be confusing left wing politics with centrist social liberalism? There's plenty of Right Wing online media to counter any Left leaning content.

I don't see anybody blaming a fan base for racism, simply highlighting that a black actor has received dozens of racist messages.

I don't buy the comment that any criticism of canon is met with claims of racism either. Nor have I seen anyone branded a racist/transphobe for thinking a TV series is crap.

The ideals of left wing and right win politics hasn't changed. What has changed is social conservative values being replaced with more progressive/inclusive social liberal views. This is in part down to Christianity's influence on western vales having waned over the last century.

It's not 'PC Gone Mad' or 'Wokeism' it's just change. The older you are, or the more religious you are, the more resistant you are to it.

It's a bit like music, every generation thinks the following generations music is shit.

I’m sure there is right media. But the fact the left are influential at the moment, this is leading to the rise in the right. Canon has been changed. As a fan of Star Trek try sitting through Discovery or Picard and tell me that diversity hasn’t become front and centre at the expense of a well written story - Star Trek has always been diverse and posed the moral questions. Which is why I love it.

left have moved farther left. When you have the right on the side of feminists (yes, you could be playing devils advocate saying the enemy of my enemy is my friend) because they are vocal in safe spaces for women. The recent news on women only spaces is good news, and hopefully is a good start.

I’m typically leftist like I said. I’m against the death penalty, I’m pro welfare and pro abortion under the rules set in the UK. I’m not for open borders for the simple reason that I feel it’s politically motivated. That’s about as right as I go.

I’m bowing out of this thread now. I’ve stated what I believe and I’ve not accused anyone of being ‘confused’ about their beliefs.

and no one has answered my original question.