jimbopm
Well-Known Member
TGR said:
The above conversation thread proves that immigration must be an issue and therefore a debate needs to take place.
The rise of UKIP
- Thread starter Johnsonontheleft
- Start date
The above conversation thread proves that immigration must be an issue and therefore a debate needs to take place.
TGR
Well-Known Member
without a dream said:
OK then immigration is not a problem.
Everything is fine.
Happy now?
nijinsky's fetlocks
Well-Known Member
TGR said:
It's the typical response of someone with a sense of humour - something which you clearly lack.
But I'll humour you awhile.
Just how is immigration a problem in this country, when every single survey ever conducted shows that immigration is a net contributor to the British economy?
We are a nation of immigrants, going back to the Picts, the Celts, the Saxons, the Romans, or whoever.
The sky hasn't fallen in, the world keeps turning, the average standard of living keeps rising, crime is falling year on year, so, in your own time, please explain to me just why I should be worried about immigration, given that I am not an irrationally paranoid Daily Mail reader?
aguero93:20
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- Joined
- 21 Oct 2013
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- 90,262
- Location
- Hunting Cats.
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- Some gobshites in day-glo green and black.
That's a difficult debate though, I doubt even UKIP actually want to be put on a pedestal and have their views on immigration cross-examined by a skilled debater, never mind Labour, Tories and Lib Dems.jimbopm said:
TGR
Well-Known Member
nijinsky's fetlocks said:
OK then immigration is not a problem.
Everything is fine.
Dammit, I posted in the general election thread, but it's better here I think. Copy and paste....
There are a number of misconceptions here. Firstly, you cannot dismiss 25-30% of the electorate as being ill informed and only voting for UKIP because they don't understand. It's quite amazingly arrogant on the part of posters who keep repeating that, and quite ridiculous too given how much coverage there's been recently, there's been nothing short of a compaign by sections of it to discredit them.
Now, there's always been a protest vote element - indeed, the Lib Dems themselves benefitted from that for years, and their national vote was always inflated by them being a second preference (which is why their whining about the FPTP system was so self-serving - and why the referendum told them to get knotted). The dissatisfaction with the three parties has been seen before, 20 years ago the Greens picked up 2 million votes in a European election, and then we had the BNP getting both councillors and MEPs, again from protest votes. They're quite interesting actually, because it's notable how having actually got in, the electorate recoil with horror and boot them back out at the first opportunity, suggesting that particular protest vote was done in the safe expectation of it not mattering - and then it did.
Now, here we are with UKIP, and there are a few things to note. Firstly, they've been increasing in popularity for quite a number of years now. 20 years ago was a breakthrough for them as they started appearing in their own right in elections, picking up 6 or 7% of the vote. I can remember Tony King highlighting how interesting that was on the BBC and getting frustrated that they were ignoring him about it.
Partisan dealignment has been going on for 40 years and more. But now we seem to be in a position where the softness of the support for the main parties is actually turning in to a genuine willingness to vote for a "minor" party. Now, this where UKIP have come in and have taken advantage, because that protest vote has coalesced around a single party to fair extent. It's wrong to see this as being just disaffected Tories too, they're now picking up Labour and Lib Dem voters too, and you can see the effect on all of them.
So why is it happening? To a fair extent you can see this in the polls on quite a wide range of subjects. UKIP are far more in tune with the British electorate than the main parties are. Voters feel ignored by them - when it comes to something like immigration, their policy is one that attracts the support of 60% of the electorate. Europe is similar, as is welfare. In fact you can work through a range of their policies where quite simply they are reflecting public opinion more than any of the main three.
UKIP's support is incredibly soft, because it's still based on disaffection with the established parties more than a particular belief in them and Farage, so come the general election, that will revert, right? No, it won't. Because UKIP have now reached critical mass. They are the go to party to express rage at Labour, Lib Dem and Tories. And the Tories have always suffered the most initially, because there's a significant part of the Conservative core vote that does regard Europe as the most important subject of all. So there's been real complacency from Labour and the Lib Dems, and that's a major error. As we saw last night, they're now picking up votes across the board.
All three main parties suffer from a collapse in trust. Labour are remembered for creating the economic crisis last time (which is why I doubt very much they'll win the next election - having such a woeful leader doesn't help), the Tories cannot escape the charge of breaking their word over a referendum, and the Lib Dems for endless broken promises in office.
And now we come to the Farage issue. People simply like him. It's not because he's some kind of shining knight, it's because he seems more normal to the public than the rest of them. We have three professional politicians in charge of the main parties, and Farage comes across as anything but. Calling him a toff misses the point, people can relate to him - the whole liking a fag and a pint thing is something that they feel they have in common with him, and quite simply slippery party leaders they don't. You see the same thing with Boris Johnson, he's popular too. 20 years ago you also saw the same sort of connection with Tony Blair. And with Thatcher for that matter. It doesn't have to reflect reality in terms of an identical life, it does reflect a belief that they can empathise with their own lives.
So where now? Well UKIP might well win the European elections, the one election where they can be voted in on their own merits. Turnout for the Euros remains low, so you get fairly committed voters anyway. For the general election, UKIP would hit the Tories more than anyone else, but they will be the alternate party in a lot of safe seats. So expect them to pick up significant votes. But not seats.
There are a number of misconceptions here. Firstly, you cannot dismiss 25-30% of the electorate as being ill informed and only voting for UKIP because they don't understand. It's quite amazingly arrogant on the part of posters who keep repeating that, and quite ridiculous too given how much coverage there's been recently, there's been nothing short of a compaign by sections of it to discredit them.
Now, there's always been a protest vote element - indeed, the Lib Dems themselves benefitted from that for years, and their national vote was always inflated by them being a second preference (which is why their whining about the FPTP system was so self-serving - and why the referendum told them to get knotted). The dissatisfaction with the three parties has been seen before, 20 years ago the Greens picked up 2 million votes in a European election, and then we had the BNP getting both councillors and MEPs, again from protest votes. They're quite interesting actually, because it's notable how having actually got in, the electorate recoil with horror and boot them back out at the first opportunity, suggesting that particular protest vote was done in the safe expectation of it not mattering - and then it did.
Now, here we are with UKIP, and there are a few things to note. Firstly, they've been increasing in popularity for quite a number of years now. 20 years ago was a breakthrough for them as they started appearing in their own right in elections, picking up 6 or 7% of the vote. I can remember Tony King highlighting how interesting that was on the BBC and getting frustrated that they were ignoring him about it.
Partisan dealignment has been going on for 40 years and more. But now we seem to be in a position where the softness of the support for the main parties is actually turning in to a genuine willingness to vote for a "minor" party. Now, this where UKIP have come in and have taken advantage, because that protest vote has coalesced around a single party to fair extent. It's wrong to see this as being just disaffected Tories too, they're now picking up Labour and Lib Dem voters too, and you can see the effect on all of them.
So why is it happening? To a fair extent you can see this in the polls on quite a wide range of subjects. UKIP are far more in tune with the British electorate than the main parties are. Voters feel ignored by them - when it comes to something like immigration, their policy is one that attracts the support of 60% of the electorate. Europe is similar, as is welfare. In fact you can work through a range of their policies where quite simply they are reflecting public opinion more than any of the main three.
UKIP's support is incredibly soft, because it's still based on disaffection with the established parties more than a particular belief in them and Farage, so come the general election, that will revert, right? No, it won't. Because UKIP have now reached critical mass. They are the go to party to express rage at Labour, Lib Dem and Tories. And the Tories have always suffered the most initially, because there's a significant part of the Conservative core vote that does regard Europe as the most important subject of all. So there's been real complacency from Labour and the Lib Dems, and that's a major error. As we saw last night, they're now picking up votes across the board.
All three main parties suffer from a collapse in trust. Labour are remembered for creating the economic crisis last time (which is why I doubt very much they'll win the next election - having such a woeful leader doesn't help), the Tories cannot escape the charge of breaking their word over a referendum, and the Lib Dems for endless broken promises in office.
And now we come to the Farage issue. People simply like him. It's not because he's some kind of shining knight, it's because he seems more normal to the public than the rest of them. We have three professional politicians in charge of the main parties, and Farage comes across as anything but. Calling him a toff misses the point, people can relate to him - the whole liking a fag and a pint thing is something that they feel they have in common with him, and quite simply slippery party leaders they don't. You see the same thing with Boris Johnson, he's popular too. 20 years ago you also saw the same sort of connection with Tony Blair. And with Thatcher for that matter. It doesn't have to reflect reality in terms of an identical life, it does reflect a belief that they can empathise with their own lives.
So where now? Well UKIP might well win the European elections, the one election where they can be voted in on their own merits. Turnout for the Euros remains low, so you get fairly committed voters anyway. For the general election, UKIP would hit the Tories more than anyone else, but they will be the alternate party in a lot of safe seats. So expect them to pick up significant votes. But not seats.
without a dream
Well-Known Member
TGR said:
No, I accept that it's an issue for plenty of people. It's pedantic of me but I hate seeing it stated as fact that it is a problem, it shifts the debate from discussing the pros and cons to automatically dealing with a perceived negative.
dazdon
Well-Known Member
nijinsky's fetlocks said:
ndjsleftnipple
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 249
Farage's manta...
"I am the Tory Party's Worst Nightmare. I am a White, Tax-Paying, God fearing English man. I am a hard working Brit and I work long hours to earn a living.
I believe in God and the freedom of religion, But I don't push it on others.
I believe in British products And buy them whenever I can.
I believe the money I make belongs to me And not to some governmental functionary, To share with others who don't work!
I think owning a home doesn't make you a capitalist; It makes you a smart Brit.
I think being a minority does not make you noble or victimized,
And does not entitle you to anything. Get over it. Join in with the majority!
I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, You should do it in English. I believe there should be no other language option.
I believe everyone has a right to pray to his or her God When and where they want to.
My heroes are fellow Brits like Freddy Flintoff And Winston Churchill And I know I've missed a few thousand!!!!!
I don't hate the rich. What I hate is the way they always manage to avoid paying proper taxes. I don't pity the poor, I just hate the way they are always moaning that they are hard done by!!
I know wrestling is fake And I don't waste my time watching or arguing about it.
I believe if you don't like the way things are here, Go back to where you came from And change your own country!
This is ENGLAND.....
We like it the way it is and even more so the way it was So stop trying to change it to look like some other socialist country!
If you were born or legally migrated here And don't like it... You are free to move To any Socialist country that will have you. I believe it is time to really clean house, Starting with the House of Commons, The seat of our biggest problems.
I want to know where the "Do Gooders" get their money from, And why are they always part of the problem and not the solution? Can I get an AMEN on that one?
I also think the cops have the right to pull you over if you're breaking the law, Regardless of what race, colour or creed you are.
And, no, I don't mind having my face shown on my driving licence. I think it's good....
I dislike those people trying to guilt me into making 'donations' to their cause. Get a job and support yourself and your family!
I believe 'illegal' is illegal no matter what the lawyers think!
I believe the Union Jack flag should be allowed to be flown Anywhere in the United Kingdom
If this makes me a BAD Brit, Then yes, I'm a BAD Brit. If you are a BAD Brit too, Please forward this to everyone you know....
We want our country back! My Country.....
I hope this offends all illegal aliens.
My great, great grandfather watched as his friends died in the Boer War. My grandfather watched and bled as his friends died in World Wars 1&2. I watched as my friends died in Sierra Leone Bosnia, & Desert Storm. Our sons and daughters watched & bled as their friends Died in Afghanistan and Iraq. None of them died for the Afghanistan and Iraq Flag. Every Briton died for the British flag.
At one high school, Foreign students raised a Middle East flag on a school flag pole. British students took it down. Guess who was expelled. The students who took it down .
West London high school students were sent home, Because they wore T-shirts with the Union Jack flag printed on them.
What is going on?? What idiots do we have in authority?? Enough is enough.
This message needs to be viewed by every Brit; And every Briton needs to stand up for Britain . We've bent over to appease the Brit-haters long enough. I'm taking a stand.
I'm standing up because of the millions Who died fighting in wars for this country,
And for the British flag.
And shame on anyone who tries to Make this a racist message. IT IS NOT ! Britons, stop giving away Your RIGHTS !
THIS IS OUR COUNTRY !
This statement DOES NOT mean I'm against immigration !
YOU ARE WELCOME HERE, IN MY COUNTRY, Welcome to come legally:
1. Get a sponsor !
2. Learn the LANGUAGE, as immigrants have in the past!
3. Live by OUR rules ! Dress as we Britons Do
4. Get a job !
5. Pay YOUR Taxes !
6. No Social Security until you have earned it and paid for it !
7. Find a place to lay your head !
If you don't want to forward this for fear of offending someone, then
YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM !
We've gone so far the other way. bent over backwards not to offend anyone.
WAKE UP BRITAIN! ! !
If you do not Pass this on, may your fingers cramp !
Made in BRITAIN & DAMN PROUD OF IT!!!!!"
AMEN"
Nigel Farage ukip
And I love it....
He may be a bit of a clown, and his Party couldn't possibly run a country but he says the things I wanna hear.
"I am the Tory Party's Worst Nightmare. I am a White, Tax-Paying, God fearing English man. I am a hard working Brit and I work long hours to earn a living.
I believe in God and the freedom of religion, But I don't push it on others.
I believe in British products And buy them whenever I can.
I believe the money I make belongs to me And not to some governmental functionary, To share with others who don't work!
I think owning a home doesn't make you a capitalist; It makes you a smart Brit.
I think being a minority does not make you noble or victimized,
And does not entitle you to anything. Get over it. Join in with the majority!
I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, You should do it in English. I believe there should be no other language option.
I believe everyone has a right to pray to his or her God When and where they want to.
My heroes are fellow Brits like Freddy Flintoff And Winston Churchill And I know I've missed a few thousand!!!!!
I don't hate the rich. What I hate is the way they always manage to avoid paying proper taxes. I don't pity the poor, I just hate the way they are always moaning that they are hard done by!!
I know wrestling is fake And I don't waste my time watching or arguing about it.
I believe if you don't like the way things are here, Go back to where you came from And change your own country!
This is ENGLAND.....
We like it the way it is and even more so the way it was So stop trying to change it to look like some other socialist country!
If you were born or legally migrated here And don't like it... You are free to move To any Socialist country that will have you. I believe it is time to really clean house, Starting with the House of Commons, The seat of our biggest problems.
I want to know where the "Do Gooders" get their money from, And why are they always part of the problem and not the solution? Can I get an AMEN on that one?
I also think the cops have the right to pull you over if you're breaking the law, Regardless of what race, colour or creed you are.
And, no, I don't mind having my face shown on my driving licence. I think it's good....
I dislike those people trying to guilt me into making 'donations' to their cause. Get a job and support yourself and your family!
I believe 'illegal' is illegal no matter what the lawyers think!
I believe the Union Jack flag should be allowed to be flown Anywhere in the United Kingdom
If this makes me a BAD Brit, Then yes, I'm a BAD Brit. If you are a BAD Brit too, Please forward this to everyone you know....
We want our country back! My Country.....
I hope this offends all illegal aliens.
My great, great grandfather watched as his friends died in the Boer War. My grandfather watched and bled as his friends died in World Wars 1&2. I watched as my friends died in Sierra Leone Bosnia, & Desert Storm. Our sons and daughters watched & bled as their friends Died in Afghanistan and Iraq. None of them died for the Afghanistan and Iraq Flag. Every Briton died for the British flag.
At one high school, Foreign students raised a Middle East flag on a school flag pole. British students took it down. Guess who was expelled. The students who took it down .
West London high school students were sent home, Because they wore T-shirts with the Union Jack flag printed on them.
What is going on?? What idiots do we have in authority?? Enough is enough.
This message needs to be viewed by every Brit; And every Briton needs to stand up for Britain . We've bent over to appease the Brit-haters long enough. I'm taking a stand.
I'm standing up because of the millions Who died fighting in wars for this country,
And for the British flag.
And shame on anyone who tries to Make this a racist message. IT IS NOT ! Britons, stop giving away Your RIGHTS !
THIS IS OUR COUNTRY !
This statement DOES NOT mean I'm against immigration !
YOU ARE WELCOME HERE, IN MY COUNTRY, Welcome to come legally:
1. Get a sponsor !
2. Learn the LANGUAGE, as immigrants have in the past!
3. Live by OUR rules ! Dress as we Britons Do
4. Get a job !
5. Pay YOUR Taxes !
6. No Social Security until you have earned it and paid for it !
7. Find a place to lay your head !
If you don't want to forward this for fear of offending someone, then
YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM !
We've gone so far the other way. bent over backwards not to offend anyone.
WAKE UP BRITAIN! ! !
If you do not Pass this on, may your fingers cramp !
Made in BRITAIN & DAMN PROUD OF IT!!!!!"
AMEN"
Nigel Farage ukip
And I love it....
He may be a bit of a clown, and his Party couldn't possibly run a country but he says the things I wanna hear.
jimbopm
Well-Known Member
aguero93:20 said:
I do think once you scrutinise UKIP on immigration they will fall apart but somehow they are tapping into a belief (evidently held by many judging by their success last night) that people are worried about it and what effect's it might have. The conclusion is that the pro-immigration parties have not been able to coherently put across their argument well enough to quell their fears.