The Scottish Politics thread

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The thing with Abe is you have to wonder why that should be and the City, Liverpool comparison is a good one and much like that dynamic, a great deal is framed by media reporting. It’s fair to say we have a Liverpool/England biased media when reporting sport and in particular football where any hint of English success is literally rammed down our throats. A great deal of Abe is caused by that. Secretly though many Scots are pleased when England do well. They just don’t show it ;-)
 
Octavian said:
You ever seen similar to this being held up outside of sport between Liverpool and Manchester?

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Of course this is only one small example and doesn’t represent the whole of Scotland but the Scots themselves were worried enough about discrimination growing and it has significantly over recent years.

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To be fair, my experience of Scottish attitudes to the English pre-date Scotland being forcibly removed from the EU against their will due to 53% of English voters voting for Brexit whilst 62% of Scots voted to Remain. It also predates the Westminster government trying to bring in laws like the Internal Market Bill, which is seen by many as a Westminster power grab from Scotland and the other nations. So I'm not too surprised sentiment has gone the way it has with some people.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
The thing with Abe is you have to wonder why that should be and the City, Liverpool comparison is a good one and much like that dynamic, a great deal is framed by media reporting. It’s fair to say we have a Liverpool/England biased media when reporting sport and in particular football where any hint of English success is literally rammed down our throats. A great deal of Abe is caused by that. Secretly though many Scots are pleased when England do well. They just don’t show it ;-)
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... whereas if Liverpool do well we really do fucking hate it!
 
west didsblue said:
To be fair, my experience of Scottish attitudes to the English pre-date Scotland being forcibly removed from the EU against their will due to 53% of English voters voting for Brexit whilst 62% of Scots voted to Remain. It also predates the Westminster government trying to bring in laws like the Internal Market Bill, which is seen by many as a Westminster power grab from Scotland and the other nations. So I'm not too surprised sentiment has gone the way it has with some people.
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I understand why some want independence, I wouldn’t mind it at all if they did, there’s a huge gap now between the two countries in terms of politics.

That said, 40% of Scotland voted for Brexit, surely the aggrieved Scots shouldn’t just blame England, when it was a significant enough part of their country who voted for it too.

Wales also voted for Brexit as a majority.

There were enough across the union outside of England to swing it over the line.

Coming back to your Internal Market Bill, I don’t know enough about it to comment but what I do know is they have had some favourable policies with devolution.including free prescriptions and tuition fees for students.

The north of England have the least spending per capita I read somewhere recently, and we also don’t have our own devolved parliament.
 
Octavian said:
I understand why some want independence, I wouldn’t mind it at all if they did, there’s a huge gap now between the two countries in terms of politics.

That said, 40% of Scotland voted for Brexit, surely the aggrieved Scots shouldn’t just blame England, when it was a significant enough part of their country who voted for it too.

Wales also voted for Brexit as a majority.

There were enough across the union outside of England to swing it over the line.

Coming back to your Internal Market Bill, I don’t know enough about it to comment but what I do know is they have had some favourable policies with devolution.including free prescriptions and tuition fees for students.

The north of England have the least spending per capita I read somewhere recently, and we also don’t have our own devolved parliament.
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If the Scots got independence would we stop sending them money? The North Sea oil is not going to help them with all the push towards non-fossil fuels.

How will their economy function?

P.S. - NS horrible woman.
 
Octavian said:
I understand why some want independence, I wouldn’t mind it at all if they did, there’s a huge gap now between the two countries in terms of politics.

That said, 40% of Scotland voted for Brexit, surely the aggrieved Scots shouldn’t just blame England, when it was a significant enough part of their country who voted for it too.

Wales also voted for Brexit as a majority.

There were enough across the union outside of England to swing it over the line.

Coming back to your Internal Market Bill, I don’t know enough about it to comment but what I do know is they have had some favourable policies with devolution.including free prescriptions and tuition fees for students.

The north of England have the least spending per capita I read somewhere recently, and we also don’t have our own devolved parliament.
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They are blaming England because the England dominated Westminster parliament voted through a version of Brexit that was as extreme as it was possible to be, so this has translated into anti-English sentiment with some people, whereas the majority are laying the blame at the real culprits which are the government. That's why there is a huge gap in politics between the two countries, a gap that has been widened enormously by the party that laughingly has the word "unionist" as part of its full name. In 2014 a clear majority of Scots wanted to stay in the UK and this majority looks like it may well have switched the other way thanks to the lack of regard that Westminster has shown to their wishes when it came to Europe.
 
Gray said:
If the Scots got independence would we stop sending them money? The North Sea oil is not going to help them with all the push towards non-fossil fuels.

How will their economy function?

P.S. - NS horrible woman.
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Same way many small countries with no oil,ie Ireland function I’d guess.There are studies out there if you are really interested though, certainly more than there was for brexit.
PS compared to a UK governed by this tory government, horrible maybe not so much.
 
Gray said:
If the Scots got independence would we stop sending them money? The North Sea oil is not going to help them with all the push towards non-fossil fuels.

How will their economy function?

P.S. - NS horrible woman.
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Well yes, we wouldn’t send them any money in future.

North Sea Oil is going to be a sticking point, as the UK government has spent a large amount of money there and will want a cut.

That’s one of many issues I see arising between England and Scotland post vote.
 
Gray said:
If the Scots got independence would we stop sending them money? The North Sea oil is not going to help them with all the push towards non-fossil fuels.

How will their economy function?

P.S. - NS horrible woman.
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I find it ironic that many of the Conservative & Unionists amongst us appear not to give a fuck if Scotland, Wales and NI go their own way.
 
west didsblue said:
They are blaming England because the England dominated Westminster parliament voted through a version of Brexit that was as extreme as it was possible to be, so this has translated into anti-English sentiment with some people, whereas the majority are laying the blame at the real culprits which are the government. That's why there is a huge gap in politics between the two countries, a gap that has been widened enormously by the party that laughingly has the word "unionist" as part of its full name. In 2014 a clear majority of Scots wanted to stay in the UK and this majority looks like it may well have switched the other way thanks to the lack of regard that Westminster has shown to their wishes when it came to Europe.
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A Brexit without any sort of deal, grace period or agreement over NI would have surely been more “extreme”?

As I say, I don’t blame them for wanting away if they disagree with the UK government and parliament so much, everyone is entitled to an opinion. If the Tories are so bad they could have backed Labour and got rid of them in 2017 but they’d already switched to SNP well prior to then, so I disagree it’s the type of Brexit that’s caused it, it was the vote itself mainly and a growing anti English sentiment that everything is the fault of Westminster, ironically the same way everything was Brussels’ fault with the leave EU side of politics.
 
Octavian said:
A Brexit without any sort of deal, grace period or agreement over NI would have surely been more “extreme”?

As I say, I don’t blame them for wanting away if they disagree with the UK government and parliament so much, everyone is entitled to an opinion. If the Tories are so bad they could have backed Labour and got rid of them in 2017 but they’d already switched to SNP well prior to then, so I disagree it’s the type of Brexit that’s caused it, it was the vote itself mainly and a growing anti English sentiment that everything is the fault of Westminster, ironically the same way everything was Brussels’ fault with the leave EU side of politics.
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Yes, a Brexit without any sort of deal, grace period or agreement over NI would have been more extreme, but even the most rabid Tory knew it would have been unsustainable so it's an irrelevant point. That's why everyone with a brain knew that the "No Deal" walkaway option was just empty rhetoric.

Not sure how a Scottish vote for Labour in 2017 would have made any difference to a Tory government being formed in 2017 even if every SNP vote went to Labour. Total Labour plus SNP seats were still less than Tory.
 
west didsblue said:
Yes, a Brexit without any sort of deal, grace period or agreement over NI would have been more extreme, but even the most rabid Tory knew it would have been unsustainable so it's an irrelevant point. That's why everyone with a brain knew that the "No Deal" walkaway option was just empty rhetoric.

Not sure how a Scottish vote for Labour in 2017 would have made any difference to a Tory government being formed in 2017 even if every SNP vote went to Labour. Total Labour plus SNP seats were still less than Tory.
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The lack of understanding is mind blowing.
 
west didsblue said:
Well that post obviously wasn't targeted at you then, although you appear to have that attitude anyway.
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It’s not that I “don’t give a fuck”, I just think it’s inevitable and whilst it will be very painful for trade and the economies of the home nations, more so than Brexit, I think there’s too much resentment in the union to continue much longer.
The two biggest countries are worlds apart.

I also think people have a right to choose.
 
west didsblue said:
Yes, a Brexit without any sort of deal, grace period or agreement over NI would have been more extreme, but even the most rabid Tory knew it would have been unsustainable so it's an irrelevant point. That's why everyone with a brain knew that the "No Deal" walkaway option was just empty rhetoric.

Not sure how a Scottish vote for Labour in 2017 would have made any difference to a Tory government being formed in 2017 even if every SNP vote went to Labour. Total Labour plus SNP seats were still less than Tory.
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when you said “Westminster voted through a Brexit that was as extreme as it was possible to be” that wasn’t the case.

Scotland had flipped to the SNP well before the Brexit deal was voted through WM.

You’re right on the last part actually, but it would have been a pretty close run thing.

@Saddleworth2 dont make cheap comments pal, if you think I’ve got a lack of understanding tell me why, grow a backbone
 
Octavian said:
It’s not that I “don’t give a fuck”, I just think it’s inevitable and whilst it will be very painful for trade and the economies of the home nations, more so than Brexit, I think there’s too much resentment in the union to continue much longer.
The two biggest countries are worlds apart.

I also think people have a right to choose.
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It didn’t have to be inevitable if the Westminster government hadn’t ridden roughshod over the wishes of the majority of people living in Scotland and NI, and had recognised that treating them as irrelevant wasn’t going to be good for the union. It’s almost as if they wanted them to break away so they could bolster their majority further in the rest of the country.
 
west didsblue said:
It didn’t have to be inevitable if the Westminster government hadn’t ridden roughshod over the wishes of the majority of people living in Scotland and NI, and had recognised that treating them as irrelevant wasn’t going to be good for the union. It’s almost as if they wanted them to break away so they could bolster their majority further in the rest of the country.
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I think they’re desperate for them to stay to be honest as nobody wants to be responsible for losing the union.

I still reckon the SNP would never have gone away until they got a successful vote.if it wasn’t brexit it’d have been something else.
 
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