The Scottish Politics thread

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Saddleworth2 said:
Sending aged hospital patients back into care homes without being tested, now thats another matter. Of course that has been a UK wide issue but it still beggars belief and fails every common sense challenge. Even if they had been discharged to the 'nightingale' hospitals that were never used, it would have made a difference.
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As I mentioned, that same policy was happening across Northern Europe (Germany/Belgium/Netherlands/France), and the appalling effects from there were known to the UK authorities even whilst they were allowing the very same thing to happen. History is surely going to frown upon this as some form of mass senicide.

Whenever there is an inquiry into this sad affair, Health Scotland, the Scottish Government, and the care home providers will inevitably all seek to blame each other. Being the most disparate, I imagine much of the blame will ultimately fall with the care home companies, and I wouldn't be surprised if that leads to the provision of such care coming slowly under the control of Health Scotland.
 
Ban-jani said:
It’s the population of Scotland with a territory larger than the entire UK.

Scotland isn’t a secluded island country on the arse end of the world, it’s part of the UK and still in the Single Market, meaning freedom of movement from the rest of Europe.

Mrs Ardern’s job was easier than anyone else’s in the Anglosphere and Europe.

That’s not to say she didn’t do well, it’s just a fact.

If you take the percentage of NZ’s population who have died and divide it to the UK’s total population, it’s the equivalent of 37,000 dying, so not as great as you think despite all of those advantages.
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22 people have died in New Zealand with a population of 4.8m
42,000 people have died in UK with a population of 68m

So UK has a population approx 14 times the size of NZ.
The UK has 1900 times the number of deaths than NZ. Very comparable.
 
Gabriel said:
As I mentioned, that same policy was happening across Northern Europe (Germany/Belgium/Netherlands/France), and the appalling effects from there were known to the UK authorities even whilst they were allowing the very same thing to happen. History is surely going to frown upon this as some form of mass senicide.

Whenever there is an inquiry into this sad affair, Health Scotland, the Scottish Government, and the care home providers will inevitably all seek to blame each other. Being the most disparate, I imagine much of the blame will ultimately fall with the care home companies, and I wouldn't be surprised if that leads to the provision of such care coming slowly under the control of Health Scotland.
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I think she has already said their needs to be a full review of the provision of care. Having gone on a beauty parade to find a care home for my Mum in Scotland I can only agree. The standards range from wonderful to shocking.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
22 people have died in New Zealand with a population of 4.8m
42,000 people have died in UK with a population of 68m

So UK has a population approx 14 times the size of NZ.
The UK has 1900 times the number of deaths than NZ. Very comparable.
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That’s ignoring all mitigating factors.

The Falkland Islands have had 0 deaths, shame on New Zealand!
 
Saddleworth2 said:
I think she has already said their needs to be a full review of the provision of care. Having gone on a beauty parade to find a care home for my Mum in Scotland I can only agree. The standards range from wonderful to shocking.
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The care home near me is, according to reports excellent, though not the cheapest. They have had no cases, locked down very early and the staff can’t praise management enough with how they kept on top of all developments and had daily updates to keep staff updated and safe. Yet the one a few miles away has had a terrible time with numerous deaths.
 
Ban-jani said:
That’s ignoring all mitigating factors.

The Falkland Islands have had 0 deaths, shame on New Zealand!
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so your calculation included in your last post was shite then.

and there are plenty mitigating factors..they locked down early, they closed airspace, they have a competent government....,
 
blueparrot said:
The care home near me is, according to reports excellent, though not the cheapest. They have had no cases, locked down very early and the staff can’t praise management enough with how they kept on top of all developments and had daily updates to keep staff updated and safe. Yet the one a few miles away has had a terrible time with numerous deaths.
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As SW points out, the range is pretty vast.

The biggest issue that i understand to care home covid cases, has been accepting respite patients, and overflow from hospitals. Seemingly, care homes that refused, or could afford to refuse to do so, had far less if any cases. Those that continued to take in short term patients had cases spread. Similarly, re regular vs short term staff, the capacity to tsst staff (which i undersrand was prettu poor for all concerned).

NB, this is not a political point, nor necessarily relevant to the broader thread, just an aside while we are on that topic.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
I think she has already said their needs to be a full review of the provision of care. Having gone on a beauty parade to find a care home for my Mum in Scotland I can only agree. The standards range from wonderful to shocking.
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As you know, it was not that long ago that the provision of such social care was left to the Church of Scotland; it was de facto the State care system. With the decline in belief, however, and the emptying of its coffers, it could not cope, especially with an aging population.

I think there could be a mood now for a fully integrated cradle to grave healthcare system, rather than the existing cradle to rocking chair system, a change that could be spurred by a combination of guilt, altruism, and the fear of being abandoned just so one day. Such a policy could start in the EU- haven't seen it yet, perhaps even in Scotland itself, but it would require careful management and funding.
 
blueparrot said:
The care home near me is, according to reports excellent, though not the cheapest. They have had no cases, locked down very early and the staff can’t praise management enough with how they kept on top of all developments and had daily updates to keep staff updated and safe. Yet the one a few miles away has had a terrible time with numerous deaths.
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It’s very much that. We visited around 8, 2 were council owned, 6 private. Guess which were the best two? The Private owned ones are so clearly run for profit and ranged from adequate to awful. We finally got my mum into a council run one after a battle with the local council that was finally resolved by mums MP. She is ok so far touch wood.
 
Ban-jani said:
I see you’ve not changed since I’ve been away.

You’re the one comparing New Zealand to the UK in the case of a pandemic.
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Just basing stuff on fact and logic mate. Don’t intend to change that. Trying to make a case that the Uk and Nz responses have been similar is the daftest thing I have seen on here for a while.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Just basing stuff on fact and logic mate. Don’t intend to change that. Trying to make a case that the Uk and Nz responses have been similar is the daftest thing I have seen on here for a while.
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They didn’t need to be similar, that’s the whole point.

But if you do want to compare, as I’ve said, the UK locked down earlier in both calendar days and number of cases per head of population, well I’ve based that on the figures you gave me.

Every time someone brings up Jacinda Ardern to attack the UK’s response, a light goes out within human consciousness.
 
Gabriel said:
As you know, it was not that long ago that the provision of such social care was left to the Church of Scotland; it was de facto the State care system. With the decline in belief, however, and the emptying of its coffers, it could not cope, especially with an aging population.

I think there could be a mood now for a fully integrated cradle to grave healthcare system, rather than the existing cradle to rocking chair system, a change that could be spurred by a combination of guilt, altruism, and the fear of being abandoned just so one day. Such a policy could start in the EU- haven't seen it yet, perhaps even in Scotland itself, but it would require careful management and funding.
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Think after this there will be a big review on both sides of the border on the relationship between the the NHS health care and the provision of social care especially for the elderly. There were problems before this, the covid situation has just highlighted it even more. It will take a root and branch rethink but I suspect Scotland and England will come up with very different solutions and a few years from now the health and care of the elderly will look very different.
 
Ban-jani said:
They didn’t need to be similar, that’s the whole point.

But if you do want to compare, as I’ve said, the UK locked down earlier in both calendar days and number of cases per head of population, well I’ve based that on the figures you gave me.

Every time someone brings up Jacinda Ardern to attack the UK’s response, a light goes out within human consciousness.
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Of course every country had to play the cards as they were dealt, and the geographic factors alone might help some more than others. However, I'd still rather have a leader who today has said 2 deaths is a failure rather than the shower we've got in charge who happily dish out phrases like world beating when we've got 40-odd thousand dead (at least). When someone is coming across as impressively as Ardern has done, it's not wrong to wonder what we might have been like with someone like that in charge.
 
joe123 said:
Of course every country had to play the cards as they were dealt, and the geographic factors alone might help some more than others. However, I'd still rather have a leader who today has said 2 deaths is a failure rather than the shower we've got in charge who happily dish out phrases like world beating when we've got 40-odd thousand dead (at least). When someone is coming across as impressively as Ardern has done, it's not wrong to wonder what we might have been like with someone like that in charge.
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You’re perfectly welcome to that view, I’m not impressed by Johnson either (maybe for different reasons) but it’s the whole comparison that makes me laugh.

Geographical location, territory size, population, population centres, the fact the two largest cities (one about the size of Stockport) is on a different island to the other, no free movement to a continent such as Europe, airport sizes and use, tourists etc. etc. all come into it.

As I say, it’s half way to using the Falkland Islands as a yard stick.

If anyone uses Germany or France or Spain, then fair enough but not bloody NZ.
 
blueparrot said:
Think after this there will be a big review on both sides of the border on the relationship between the the NHS health care and the provision of social care especially for the elderly. There were problems before this, the covid situation has just highlighted it even more. It will take a root and branch rethink but I suspect Scotland and England will come up with very different solutions and a few years from now the health and care of the elderly will look very different.
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Agree with that. Having faced the same problems, they'll arrive at radically different solutions, which in time will become a further point of difference between them.
 
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