Today's shooting in America thread

[Mad Eyed Screamer]

1) National appeal to hand over guns to local police station
2) failure to hand over guns results in a huge fine or possible imprisonment
3) get the U.S army to raid every house and shop
4) Melt the guns and use the material for new cars, highways, machinery and artificial limbs for those who had them blasted off by the guns.


or... just say the above is impossible, carry on.

Simple solution...... the constitution says they have the right to bare arms...... doesn't say anything about ammo..... so just make selling ammo illegal..... obviously if you give a date of say after 31st March it is illegal to buy ammo every nut case will stock up, so you say before that date one person can only buy 25 bullets.... the yanks can have as many guns as they like but will have no ammo.... their right to have a gun is intact and everyone can send their kid to school happy.

 

[Chippy_boy]

The evidence is pretty clear. The number of shootings in the US is extremely understated because you have to also consider the number of shootings or isolated incidents involving people who aren't killed as well.

The killing of 12 people in one scenario makes headlines but it is irrelevant to the other incidents today where say one person is shot and injured, another where one is shot and killed etc. It is a major, major, widespread problem.

Here I reckon the total number of incidents involving guns harming or killing is in the low hundreds and will often involve gangs or organised crime. In the US it will be in the tens and perhaps hundreds of thousands but involves regular ordinary people.

The maddest thing in the US is not just that guns are legal but rather they have been specifically made legal by an archaic law that really was never designed to support the lawful use of automatic weapons etc...

Very true.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Simple solution...... the constitution says they have the right to bare arms...... doesn't say anything about ammo..... so just make selling ammo illegal..... obviously if you give a date of say after 31st March it is illegal to buy ammo every nut case will stock up, so you say before that date one person can only buy 25 bullets.... the yanks can have as many guns as they like but will have no ammo.... their right to have a gun is intact and everyone can send their kid to school happy.

1. Bear, not bare
2. I think your definition of arms is a bit silly and rather too literal
3. I am guessing and hoping you are not serious, but worryingly I think you might be

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

I think about this the same way I do alcoholism. The vast majority of alcoholics won't kill someone in a DUI, just as the vast majority of gun owners won't kill anyone. To become physically and mentally dependent on alcohol begins when alcohol (or food or gambling or narcotics) becomes a crutch for dealing with some other insecurity or personal shortfall, or a salve for pain. I submit the majority of gun owners own guns for the same reason. They're insecure about their ability to protect themselves or their families, or insecure about their own "manliness" if they're male, so they own a gun. But the gun is their insecurity crutch. Try to take it away, and you get the same reaction you do when try to force an alcoholic to go cold turkey. To remove the crutch is to force them to deal with their insecurity, shortfall or pain. The reaction is to lash out -- "YOU'RE NEVER TAKING MY GUN" (so you'd become a criminal by choice if guns were illegal then?) . . . "CRIMINALS WILL ALWAYS FIND A WAY TO AVOID THE LAW (so why have any, I'd ask) . . . "WHY NOT MAKE CARS AND KNIVES ILLEGAL (because guns have a single purpose and those other things are designed to do other things?) . . . etc.

The real "mental health" issue is with a gun owner who refuses to give up a gun under any circumstances, who offers platitudes such as these when confronted with even the hint of change, not the periodic lunatic who shoots up a bar.

 

[casserole of nonsense]

Simple solution...... the constitution says they have the right to bare arms...... doesn't say anything about ammo..... so just make selling ammo illegal..... obviously if you give a date of say after 31st March it is illegal to buy ammo every nut case will stock up, so you say before that date one person can only buy 25 bullets.... the yanks can have as many guns as they like but will have no ammo.... their right to have a gun is intact and everyone can send their kid to school happy.

What about all the ammunition the Hole-in-the-Wall gang buried in Johnson County, Wyoming?

The lawmen will never find that.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

The evidence is pretty clear. The number of shootings in the US is extremely understated because you have to also consider the number of shootings or isolated incidents involving people who aren't killed as well.

The killing of 12 people in one scenario makes headlines but it is irrelevant to the other incidents today where say one person is shot and injured, another where one is shot and killed etc. It is a major, major, widespread problem.

Here I reckon the total number of incidents involving guns harming or killing is in the low hundreds and will often involve gangs or organised crime. In the US it will be in the tens and perhaps hundreds of thousands but involves regular ordinary people.

The maddest thing in the US is not just that guns are legal but rather they have been specifically made legal by an archaic law that really was never designed to support the lawful use of automatic weapons etc...

American gun laws are the apotheosis of mandated insanity within the democratic world.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I think about this the same way I do alcoholism. The vast majority of alcoholics won't kill someone in a DUI, just as the vast majority of gun owners won't kill anyone. To become physically and mentally dependent on alcohol begins when alcohol (or food or gambling or narcotics) becomes a crutch for dealing with some other insecurity or personal shortfall, or a salve for pain. I submit the majority of gun owners own guns for the same reason. They're insecure about their ability to protect themselves or their families, or insecure about their own "manliness" if they're male, so they own a gun. But the gun is their insecurity crutch. Try to take it away, and you get the same reaction you do when try to force an alcoholic to go cold turkey. To remove the crutch is to force them to deal with their insecurity, shortfall or pain. The reaction is to lash out -- "YOU'RE NEVER TAKING MY GUN" (so you'd become a criminal by choice if guns were illegal then?) . . . "CRIMINALS WILL ALWAYS FIND A WAY TO AVOID THE LAW (so why have any, I'd ask) . . . "WHY NOT MAKE CARS AND KNIVES ILLEGAL (because guns have a single purpose and those other things are designed to do other things?) . . . etc.

The real "mental health" issue is with a gun owner who refuses to give up a gun under any circumstances, who offers platitudes such as these when confronted with even the hint of change, not the periodic lunatic who shoots up a bar.

That's all a bit profound for BM ;-)

To be honest, I have sympathy with gun owning Americans reluctant to give up their guns. I loathe state interference of any kind and if I owned a gun legally, here in the UK, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was told I had to hand it over. Bearing in mind (a) I am not mentally ill, (b) I'd have no intention of shooting anyone, probably ever, but if I ever did, it would only be in the most dire and extreme self-defence circumstances where me or my family were under mortal threat and, most importantly, (c)

(c) bearing in mind I'd know full well that me surrendering my gun would make the square root of fuck all difference since all the criminals who want to own one would continue to do so.

Basically I think I'd feel I was being told to do something that I didn't want to do, which was not actually in my best interests. The "greater good" of a more gun free society is too intangible and far away for any perception that handing over your own gun is "worth it".

This is reflected in US polls. As of October 2018, 39% of Americans are prefectly happy with their current gun laws, and 8% think they are too strict and want LESS control! This 47% compares to only 46% who think they need to tighten up on the gun laws.

So the idea that it's simply a few nutters in the NRA who are holding the country to randsome over this, is false. Most Americans want to keep their guns.

 

[bluethrunthru]

The shooter in todays events identified as a 28 year old former Marine called Ian David Long - no tweet from Trump yet? The shooter is probably too white and not Muslim enough for him to rage about though.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

That's all a bit profound for BM ;-)

To be honest, I have sympathy with gun owning Americans reluctant to give up their guns. I loathe state interference of any kind and if I owned a gun legally, here in the UK, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was told I had to hand it over. Bearing in mind (a) I am not mentally ill, (b) I'd have no intention of shooting anyone, probably ever, but if I ever did, it would only be in the most dire and extreme self-defence circumstances where me or my family were under mortal threat and, most importantly, (c)

(c) bearing in mind I'd know full well that me surrendering my gun would make the square root of fuck all difference since all the criminals who want to own one would continue to do so.

Basically I think I'd feel I was being told to do something that I didn't want to do, which was not actually in my best interests. The "greater good" of a more gun free society is too intangible and far away for any perception that handing over your own gun is "worth it".

This is reflected in US polls. As of October 2018, 39% of Americans are prefectly happy with their current gun laws, and 8% think they are too strict and want LESS control! This 47% compares to only 46% who think they need to tighten up on the gun laws.

So the idea that it's simply a few nutters in the NRA who are holding the country to randsome over this, is false. Most Americans want to keep their guns.

I've always found the "trust me, I'd never shoot anyone" argument funny, because the precise reason you (not you chippy, the royal you) own a gun is because you don't trust others. So non-gunowners are supposed to trust gun owners, but gun owners trust no one.

Anyhow, I have no problem with gun ownership at all. I simply believe guns and gunowners should be regulated the same way pilots and planes are. Registration, license expiration, check rides, regular medical exams, log books of hours (gun discharges), recurrent training, etc. All of this should be paid for by firearm/ammunition sales taxes, and a gunowner's insurance rate should be well above that of a non-owner.

The fundamental purpose of a gun is to injure. No other consumer good should be more highly regulated because all other goods have a societal benefit beyond that.

 

[CityInWashingtonState]

That's all a bit profound for BM ;-)

To be honest, I have sympathy with gun owning Americans reluctant to give up their guns. I loathe state interference of any kind and if I owned a gun legally, here in the UK, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was told I had to hand it over. Bearing in mind (a) I am not mentally ill, (b) I'd have no intention of shooting anyone, probably ever, but if I ever did, it would only be in the most dire and extreme self-defence circumstances where me or my family were under mortal threat and, most importantly, (c)

(c) bearing in mind I'd know full well that me surrendering my gun would make the square root of fuck all difference since all the criminals who want to own one would continue to do so.

Basically I think I'd feel I was being told to do something that I didn't want to do, which was not actually in my best interests. The "greater good" of a more gun free society is too intangible and far away for any perception that handing over your own gun is "worth it".

This is reflected in US polls. As of October 2018, 39% of Americans are prefectly happy with their current gun laws, and 8% think they are too strict and want LESS control! This 47% compares to only 46% who think they need to tighten up on the gun laws.

So the idea that it's simply a few nutters in the NRA who are holding the country to randsome over this, is false. Most Americans want to keep their guns.

But it is the NRA nutters who are blocking progress on this issue. Gun control advocates by-in-large do not want to outlaw gun ownership. Rather, they wish to enforce responsible gun ownership.

Mandatory background checks for gun ownership; outlawing assault rifles; outlawing high capacity magazines; outlawing devices capable of turning guns effectively into assault rifles (bump stocks); promoting research into gun safety innovations of various sorts designed to make unauthorized use of guns more difficult.

You don't need a hand grenade to protect your home; ownership of live grenades posses a public safety issue far larger than the benefit of making these devices legal.

Along the same lines, you don't need an assault rifle for home protection/hunting.