Transgender Children

slicky202 said:
It’s recent that PD has had been treated as a mental health disorder and still to this day in many places it isn’t. Pd’s tend to have capacity throughout. Poor fuckers tend to be women who’ve had horrendous childhoods, I’ve seen them do some terrible things to themselves to get the attention of others, so messed up.
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Yep my Mrs to a T that, she has it well under control now though.
 
Why is there this big obsession about labels these days? I find it bizarre that children are being pigeonholed or pigeionholing tbemselves. Can't children just be children? If they want to dress a certain way or play with toys aimed at the opposite sex let them, support them but don't stick a label on it. I'm not sure what that achieves other than arguably making a child feel they have to stick with that tag even if it isn't right for them.
 
masterwig said:
Why is there this big obsession about labels these days? I find it bizarre that children are being pigeonholed or pigeionholing tbemselves. Can't children just be children? If they want to dress a certain way or play with toys aimed at the opposite sex let them, support them but don't stick a label on it. I'm not sure what that achieves other than arguably making a child feel they have to stick with that tag even if it isn't right for them.
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Definitely agree that we should move away from stereotypes and labeling and let children be children. I think part of the problem though is that the stereotypes and labeling exist in the first place. Like if a child wants to play with a toy aimed the opposite sex or dress like the opposite sex, they will so often be told "but that's how boys/girls dress". Imposing that label in the first place makes people feel must be the opposite. The need to remove labels cuts both ways i think.
 
masterwig said:
Why is there this big obsession about labels these days? I find it bizarre that children are being pigeonholed or pigeionholing tbemselves. Can't children just be children? If they want to dress a certain way or play with toys aimed at the opposite sex let them, support them but don't stick a label on it. I'm not sure what that achieves other than arguably making a child feel they have to stick with that tag even if it isn't right for them.
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Identity politics.
 
masterwig said:
Why is there this big obsession about labels these days? I find it bizarre that children are being pigeonholed or pigeionholing tbemselves. Can't children just be children? If they want to dress a certain way or play with toys aimed at the opposite sex let them, support them but don't stick a label on it. I'm not sure what that achieves other than arguably making a child feel they have to stick with that tag even if it isn't right for them.
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The gender binary system we have in place at the moment - that men are men, women are women, everything else doesn't exist etc. - is an ancient social construct that's as deeply rooted in labels and pigeonholes as the more more fluid system that's being proposed by transgender activists today. The old binary system might have been around for centuries but it doesn't mean it wasn't invented and enforced. For example, Indigenous and Native North Americans were perfectly happy with people in their society being "two-spirited" (the spirit of a man and a woman inside the same body) and often practised gender swapping in many different forms - at least until Christopher Columbus rocked up on their land and forced two-spirit people to conform to more conventional European Christian gender roles or face death. The rest is the gruesome history of the United States of America.

Gender, biology and sex not necessarily being fixed to each other, and gender being a spectrum as opposed to one thing or the other, isn't a perfect system, but the world doesn't have to live by it every day. The binary gender recognition system we have in place now is adequate if problematic and works best for the majority - as much as I'm an advocate for transgender rights and want to see a society where gender fluidity is accepted and encouraged, it's still perfectly acceptable and practical to assign a baby's gender at birth based on their genitals. What's not acceptable, however, is what happens afterwards, where primary socialisation is impacted so heavily by rigid gender roles that any child who grows up with gender dysphoria feels trapped, isolated and ignored, and then ends up as a social outcast (or the subject of ridicule from angry men on football forums) when they try to do something about it, like beginning hormone therapy before biology takes a hold of them.

Transgender people of all shapes and sizes have existed in thousands of cultures and societies for centuries and it's high time we recognised that and started treating them like human beings again. And the best first step for some people would be for them to see stories like this one and simply live and let live. Boys want to dress up as Disney princesses and wear pink, girls want to join football teams and play with cowboys and dinosaurs, and when they get older they might want to begin hormone therapy so that their physical appearance better resembles the person they believe themselves to be on the inside - so what?
 
7evens said:
This isn't the problem it's made out to be. I know lots of transgender people through a number of support groups and charities and they all transitioned in their late teens and early twenties (some even in their 40s and 50s!) after years of battling with the NHS just to get the medication they need. Medical professionals are very reluctant to prescribe hormones to people under the age of 16 but any hormonal changes made before that point are quite quickly reversible. Sex reassignment surgery is almost impossible to get until you're 18 as well, and it's usually only satisfactory when done privately. The NHS provide the service but the results are mixed and quite often you see transgender people asking for money for surgery so they can go private. It's not something a child could afford.

The reporting of these stories is often a little misguided. Preteen kids aren't going under the knife and getting sex changes willy nilly on the NHS - at that age, like the rest of us, they experiment by wearing different clothes when they realise they're "not the same" as everyone else, and they might want to start hormonal therapy while they're still going through puberty, but it's rarely anything more than that. Most people who want to transition are asked to wait two years by GPs before they begin hormonal treatment and even longer after that before they're offered surgery. It's not a sweet shop full of people having sex changes, it's usually a very long and stressed out queue of people who sometimes give up along the way.
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Thank you for putting it better than i did but people won't have it,most think kids are having sex changes on a whim
 
And if they want to do it great as long as they are willing to fund it, I’m sure the native Americans didn’t need hormone therapy to be what they wanted. Be who you want to be but don’t expect the rest of us to pay for it.
 
7evens said:
The gender binary system we have in place at the moment - that men are men, women are women, everything else doesn't exist etc. - is an ancient social construct that's as deeply rooted in labels and pigeonholes as the more more fluid system that's being proposed by transgender activists today. The old binary system might have been around for centuries but it doesn't mean it wasn't invented and enforced. For example, Indigenous and Native North Americans were perfectly happy with people in their society being "two-spirited" (the spirit of a man and a woman inside the same body) and often practised gender swapping in many different forms - at least until Christopher Columbus rocked up on their land and forced two-spirit people to conform to more conventional European Christian gender roles or face death. The rest is the gruesome history of the United States of America.

Gender, biology and sex not necessarily being fixed to each other, and gender being a spectrum as opposed to one thing or the other, isn't a perfect system, but the world doesn't have to live by it every day. The binary gender recognition system we have in place now is adequate if problematic and works best for the majority - as much as I'm an advocate for transgender rights and want to see a society where gender fluidity is accepted and encouraged, it's still perfectly acceptable and practical to assign a baby's gender at birth based on their genitals. What's not acceptable, however, is what happens afterwards, where primary socialisation is impacted so heavily by rigid gender roles that any child who grows up with gender dysphoria feels trapped, isolated and ignored, and then ends up as a social outcast (or the subject of ridicule from angry men on football forums) when they try to do something about it, like beginning hormone therapy before biology takes a hold of them.

Transgender people of all shapes and sizes have existed in thousands of cultures and societies for centuries and it's high time we recognised that and started treating them like human beings again. And the best first step for some people would be for them to see stories like this one and simply live and let live. Boys want to dress up as Disney princesses and wear pink, girls want to join football teams and play with cowboys and dinosaurs, and when they get older they might want to begin hormone therapy so that their physical appearance better resembles the person they believe themselves to be on the inside - so what?
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Did the Indigenous People give their children hormone blockers / supplements to help with the transition too?
 
7evens said:
The gender binary system we have in place at the moment - that men are men, women are women, everything else doesn't exist etc. - is an ancient social construct that's as deeply rooted in labels and pigeonholes as the more more fluid system that's being proposed by transgender activists today. The old binary system might have been around for centuries but it doesn't mean it wasn't invented and enforced. For example, Indigenous and Native North Americans were perfectly happy with people in their society being "two-spirited" (the spirit of a man and a woman inside the same body) and often practised gender swapping in many different forms - at least until Christopher Columbus rocked up on their land and forced two-spirit people to conform to more conventional European Christian gender roles or face death. The rest is the gruesome history of the United States of America.

Gender, biology and sex not necessarily being fixed to each other, and gender being a spectrum as opposed to one thing or the other, isn't a perfect system, but the world doesn't have to live by it every day. The binary gender recognition system we have in place now is adequate if problematic and works best for the majority - as much as I'm an advocate for transgender rights and want to see a society where gender fluidity is accepted and encouraged, it's still perfectly acceptable and practical to assign a baby's gender at birth based on their genitals. What's not acceptable, however, is what happens afterwards, where primary socialisation is impacted so heavily by rigid gender roles that any child who grows up with gender dysphoria feels trapped, isolated and ignored, and then ends up as a social outcast (or the subject of ridicule from angry men on football forums) when they try to do something about it, like beginning hormone therapy before biology takes a hold of them.

Transgender people of all shapes and sizes have existed in thousands of cultures and societies for centuries and it's high time we recognised that and started treating them like human beings again. And the best first step for some people would be for them to see stories like this one and simply live and let live. Boys want to dress up as Disney princesses and wear pink, girls want to join football teams and play with cowboys and dinosaurs, and when they get older they might want to begin hormone therapy so that their physical appearance better resembles the person they believe themselves to be on the inside - so what?
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Interesting. I think you are agreeing with me.

It's a hard thing to get your head around if you have never had any doubts about your gender identity and as such I have sympathy for what you call 'angry men' in terms of their struggle to understand how people might feel. I must confess there is a part of me which thinks along similar lines. I don't quite get why simply feeling and identifying as male/female isn't enough and why people make physical changes to their body. I suppose unless you have experienced it then it is difficult to comprehend.

Each to their own.
 
masterwig said:
Interesting. I think you are agreeing with me.

It's a hard thing to get your head around if you have never had any doubts about your gender identity and as such I have sympathy for what you call 'angry men' in terms of their struggle to understand how people might feel. I must confess there is a part of me which thinks along similar lines. I don't quite get why simply feeling and identifying as male/female isn't enough and why people make physical changes to their body. I suppose unless you have experienced it then it is difficult to comprehend.

Each to their own.
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I haven't experienced anything like this, as it happens. I know lots of people who have but that's not the same thing. I've never felt completely comfortable with ideas about what masculinity is "supposed" to be, but I've always been comfortable with knowing I'm both male and a man. Having said that, though, as much as not experiencing something can often leave people a little confused and, as you've put it, unable to get their head around a concept, there's a big difference between struggling to understand something and just being insulting for the sake of it. It's one thing for posters on this forum to see a story concerning a teenage male wanting to undergo hormone therapy and eventually become a woman, it takes an extra step to make insulting remarks and convince others that this teenager represents the downfall of society. As I said, it's no different to people in the 1980s squirming at the thought of others being openly homosexual in public because they just "couldn't understand it". I don't understand what it is to be gay, to be attracted to people of the same sex, but does it make the experiences of gay people any less valid, or any more deserving of ridicule? Absolutely not. You've said it yourself, "Each to their own", it's a shame quite a lot of people can't leave this well alone if they don't understand it.
 
Blue Maverick said:
And if they want to do it great as long as they are willing to fund it, I’m sure the native Americans didn’t need hormone therapy to be what they wanted. Be who you want to be but don’t expect the rest of us to pay for it.
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It should be taxed to pay for the inevitable aftercare cases where it doesn't work out mentally or physically.
 
Blue Maverick said:
And if they want to do it great as long as they are willing to fund it, I’m sure the native Americans didn’t need hormone therapy to be what they wanted. Be who you want to be but don’t expect the rest of us to pay for it.
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Not that they should have to, but quite a lot of transgender people do foot the bill themselves. As I've explained in this thread previously, many transgender people are forced to wait two years on the NHS before starting hormone therapy and even longer than that before being offered surgery. This forces them into exploring private healthcare options for sex reassignment surgery and, in the cases of people I've known personally, Internet-based and illegal drug markets for hormone therapy. I've had to give money to friends of mine for estrogen hormones after they were denied medication after a GP appointment - they then take that money to hormone dealers (who are, unbelievably, a real thing) and get what they can.

Just have a read of this. It's an American story but British transgender people go through similar issues: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/08/diy-hormone-replacement-therapy/498044/

More UK-based information here: https://transit.org.uk/hrt-internet.html
 
Blue Maverick said:
And if they want to do it great as long as they are willing to fund it, I’m sure the native Americans didn’t need hormone therapy to be what they wanted. Be who you want to be but don’t expect the rest of us to pay for it.
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so its just the cost to the NHS you object to.

you realise that the cost to the NHS is even higher if the kids dont get what they need and end really screwed up adults with psychological problems that will need to be treated by the NHS.
 
pirate said:
so its just the cost to the NHS you object to.

you realise that the cost to the NHS is even higher if the kids dont get what they need and end really screwed up adults with psychological problems that will need to be treated by the NHS.
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And you know this how? That’s like saying we should pay for IVF indefinitely otherwise the woman will end up with mental health problems, or I should get a new knee because it depresses me because I can’t run anymore or do my job without been in pain.
 
I’ve always been drawn towards girly girls. Long hair, dresses, make up, heels. There’s a couple of very geezer birds in my local pub and I don’t see what their husbands see in them. It’d be like shagging your mate with all the pint drinking and tracksuit bottoms.
 
7evens said:
The gender binary system we have in place at the moment - that men are men, women are women, everything else doesn't exist etc. - is an ancient social construct that's as deeply rooted in labels and pigeonholes as the more more fluid system that's being proposed by transgender activists today. The old binary system might have been around for centuries but it doesn't mean it wasn't invented and enforced. For example, Indigenous and Native North Americans were perfectly happy with people in their society being "two-spirited" (the spirit of a man and a woman inside the same body) and often practised gender swapping in many different forms - at least until Christopher Columbus rocked up on their land and forced two-spirit people to conform to more conventional European Christian gender roles or face death. The rest is the gruesome history of the United States of America.

Gender, biology and sex not necessarily being fixed to each other, and gender being a spectrum as opposed to one thing or the other, isn't a perfect system, but the world doesn't have to live by it every day. The binary gender recognition system we have in place now is adequate if problematic and works best for the majority - as much as I'm an advocate for transgender rights and want to see a society where gender fluidity is accepted and encouraged, it's still perfectly acceptable and practical to assign a baby's gender at birth based on their genitals. What's not acceptable, however, is what happens afterwards, where primary socialisation is impacted so heavily by rigid gender roles that any child who grows up with gender dysphoria feels trapped, isolated and ignored, and then ends up as a social outcast (or the subject of ridicule from angry men on football forums) when they try to do something about it, like beginning hormone therapy before biology takes a hold of them.

Transgender people of all shapes and sizes have existed in thousands of cultures and societies for centuries and it's high time we recognised that and started treating them like human beings again. And the best first step for some people would be for them to see stories like this one and simply live and let live. Boys want to dress up as Disney princesses and wear pink, girls want to join football teams and play with cowboys and dinosaurs, and when they get older they might want to begin hormone therapy so that their physical appearance better resembles the person they believe themselves to be on the inside - so what?
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Existed for centuries, yes, but allowing children to take hormone enhancers and hinderers to push them more towards the other way is very wrong. It should not be allowed.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
Existed for centuries, yes, but allowing children to take hormone enhancers and hinderers to push them more towards the other way is very wrong. It should not be allowed.
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It is fully reversable,would you rather a girl in a boys body kill themself when they go through puberty and grow balls, a bigger dick and hair than give them the benefit of the doubt knowing it's reversable should they decide they are ok later?
 
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