danielwood5
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 27 Jul 2012
- Messages
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Sorry, I don't seem to have made myself clear, I'm broadly agreeing with you but with some minor differences.Did you look at *any* of the links I've posted?
There are long-term studies ongoing - one at Loughborough University - to measure the effects of HRT on male athletes over time. But, as I've said before, there is no evidence whatsoever to date to suggest that any reduction in muscle strength resulting from hormone use will be more than about 5%, still leaving male athletes as a significant advantage to female ones, even without allowing for build, height, limb length, Q angle etc.
See this article in today's Times:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...p?shareToken=db0d2c2ffd264d7defd494ceed5c4af2
Testosterone suppression for transgender women has little effect on reducing muscle strength even after a year of treatment, according to new findings. Researchers say the findings could have important implications for transgender athletes in female sport.
Most sports governing bodies, including the International Olympic Committee, now have policies saying transwomen must take testosterone blockers for at least a year before they can compete at elite level.
But findings by the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, to be published this year, have shown the effect of the hormone treatment in relation to reducing leg muscle strength, is almost neglible for men who transition to become women.
That could be significant in sporting terms because it indicates the physical advantages of biological males are maintained even after transitioning and after hormone therapy to reduce testosterone levels.
And, also as I've said before, the IOC rules changed just before the last Olympics (not enough time for anyone affected to qualify) in that they stopped requiring surgery. From evidence given to Parliament, anywhere between 80 - 95& of males identifying as women retain their male genitals. There is every reason to believe that those percentages are accurate worldwide, therefore it's easy to see that the pool of potential athletes has greatly increased.
This is not a problem people "are looking for" IT IS ALREADY HERE. Did you read the recent announcement that transwomen were going to be allowed into female Rugby teams? Not a single person I saw comment on it, including men who have played and/or coached the sport for many years, think that is a good, sensible or safe idea.
The issue of transmen (you referred to Mack Beggs) is very different. It is highly unlikely that a transman is going to be able to compete with male athletes. Mack won their championships against girls despite being on testosterone which - in a drugs-testing regime - would have led to T levels that would have had a female banned. As far as I can find out, Mack has never competed against males. If you're not already aware of it, you should do some research into the East German doping scandals. Start with the 1980 Olympics and how Sharron Davis lost out on Gold. Testosterone will give a female an advantage over other females, not against males.
EDITED TO ADD (also from the Times article linked above):
Dr Tommy Lundberg, an exercise physiologist at the Karolinska Institute who has led the research, said that muscle mass dropped by five per cent after a year’s treatment, but that the effect on trans women’s muscle strength was neglible. The research was carried out on 23 volunteers — 12 trans women and 11 trans men — to monitor changes in muscle mass and strength during and after a year of hormone therapy.
It's not just elite sport that's affected - it's every level of sport, from grassroots upwards.
Every trans identified male moving into a female team takes away a place from a woman or girl. Their presence may make the sport unsafe (contact sports, martial arts); it will certainly make the sport unfair (see previous examples).
I don't think there should be a blanket ban on all transgender athletes as this seems unfair to me. The study you cite states that there is negligible loss of strength in the legs of MTF transgender athletes, fair enough, so how much difference does that make in various sports? This study may show that an athlete who competes in weightlifting may have an advantage (purely using this study on the strength in the legs of course, this isn't taking into account the other physiological differences and changes, muscle memory, changes in quick twitch muscle fibres, etc) so maybe MTF athletes in weight lifting should be banned as they would have an unfair advantage. However, does this extra leg strength help an MTF golfer? Maybe, maybe not, however I don't think they should automatically be banned because a weightlifter has an advantage.
What I was trying to say is that for me individual sports should look at how these issues affect their own sport rather than having them all making group decisions as that makes more sense to me personally.
This would especially be the case on contact sports as obviously there's a much higher risk of injury to others. There needs to be a more rational discussion around self identification too, especially at lower ability levels and younger age groups as for someone to self identify with no medical intervention will not work at all.
As I said, I broadly agree with you and think this is something that needs to be sorted out now while the relative numbers of people affected is fairly small (hence me saying this isn't a problem that's here at the moment, for example you have said that trans athletes can play rugby now but my question is how many actually ARE playing rugby) as this is an issue that is going to become more and more prevalent over time.
Just as a short FYI postscript Mack Beggs now wrestles in the male category as he has had his birth certificate changed to male now but I've no idea how he gets on in the male league. This is also an interesting read regarding the arguments and science involved; https://sportsscientists.com/2019/0...ing_wp_cron=1567084491.1466479301452636718750