Transgender Sportswomen in Sport

[I'm With Stupid]

As I understand it - and I'm relying on explanations I've had from people who *do* understand this stuff - those studies that showed either similarities between transwomen & women, or differences between transwomen & men, failed to take into account sexual orientation, and that the same differences/similarities occur if you compare straight women to homosexual males or homosexual males to men. Nor did it take into account brain plasticity.

The study linked on that Wikipedia page definitely did take sexuality into account. It was one of the few things I understood in it. But surely the acknowledgment that you can make comparisons between homosexual and heterosexual brains of the same and opposite sex at least makes it possible that the same comparisons can be made with transgender people's brains? The problem is that so much of the science in this area ends up being determined by what is socially acceptable or convenient to believe. So we're actually encouraged to look for biological causes of homosexuality, because that sticks it to the "it's a choice" brigade, whereas with male and female differences, there is a sizable group of people who like to believe that all differences between men and women are environmental and purely a product of our sexist society. As for brain plasticity, of course the existence of difference between average male and female brains does not preclude the possibility that some or many differences are the result of environmental factors. However, your position seems to deny any biological difference between male and female brains whatsoever. It's also worth mentioning that neuroplasticity doesn't automatically mean that it's not biologically determined. The hormones released during puberty for example have an effect on brain development, and that would be an example of neuroplasticity that is still biologically determined. A difference in hormones in transgender people could therefore conceivably be responsible for differences in brain development (but I'm just speculating there).

This article from Nature is behind a paywall, but you can still read the key findings.

Also - an extract from here ( https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/mar/05/the-gendered-brain-gina-rippon-review) about the book that's lined up next on my kindle:

Brick by brick, Rippon razes this history and, for the (non-scientist) reader, what she says is revolutionary to a glorious degree. To sum up: the notion that there is such a thing as a female brain is bunkum, more or less. Furthermore, now that we know our brains are highly plastic, and for so much longer than we once thought, our aptitudes and behaviour must be linked not only to nurture rather than sex, but to life itself: to all that we do and experience down the years.​

Also https://cosmicshambles.com/words/blogs/deanburnett/male-and-female-brains and https://www.theatlantic.com/science...-female-brains-biologically-different/563702/

If there is no such thing as a 'female brain' or a 'male brain' then there is certainly no evidence for 'being born in the wrong body".

I'd agree with that, but I don't agree with the 'if' part of it. Obviously 'being born in the wrong body' is a bit of a misnomer. What they would actually have is a brain structure and brain function more similar to the opposite sex than their own birth sex. Or possibly a brain structure that is somewhere between the two. Or perhaps different transgender people have different causes.

By complete coincidence, I happened to read a scathing rebuttal to the book you mention here earlier today before I knew you'd included it in your response. I haven't read the original book though.

But given your rejection of male/female brain differences, what is your hypothesis for what causes someone to be transgender?

 

[Blue&whitestripes]

The study linked on that Wikipedia page definitely did take sexuality into account

Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly: the sexuality taken into account in that study refers only to the sexuality of the transgender subjects of the study, whereas I was referring to a comparison between transgender people and non transgender people.

It's also worth mentioning that neuroplasticity doesn't automatically mean that it's not biologically determined. The hormones released during puberty for example have an effect on brain development, and that would be an example of neuroplasticity that is still biologically determined. A difference in hormones in transgender people could therefore conceivably be responsible for differences in brain development (but I'm just speculating there).

Even assuming hormones during puberty affect brain development, that would not account for children who've been diagnosed as transgender pre-puberty.

I don't have "a hypothesis". I think that there are probably a number of different factors that cause someone to be transgender and that there may be multiple causes present at the same time. There do seem to be very different causal factors between young children, adolescents and adults. I'd like to see more resources applied to accurately diagnosing, supporting and appropriately treating transgender kids & adults, including for any comorbid conditions.

This thread has now gone way off the topic from the OP.