I think the post between our conversation probably explains my stance a little better. I don't agree with everything I'm With Stupid has posted about it, but I think treating each case individually is probably the best way to go about it. If, as a society, we're now of the viewpoint that gender is a spectrum (which I believe it is), then I'd argue that belief is contradicted by trying to put athletes in two or three boxes but no more. Gender's a complicated thing, and I'm not sure I'll ever understand it because I've never had to question it, sort of in the same way I've never had to question my sexuality. I do think there needs to be some kind of union for transgender sportspeople, or just better organisation for these things in general, for everyone's sake. If only because it'd make every case so boring and bogged down by administration that these athletes, who are just trying to compete in an arena that feels comfortable for them really, wouldn't be put on public trial every time they want to play football or do some cycling.
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Transgender Sportswomen in Sport
- Thread starter SWP's back
- Start date
I'm With Stupid
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People like to call everything a spectrum nowadays, but I'm not sure it's accurate. Without wanting to get too much into the gender/sex debate, biologically speaking I'd say that the male/female distinction is a binary one that some people don't happen to fit into. I certainly don't believe that the majority of the population are on a sliding scale between male and female, I think almost everyone is entirely one or the other, but there are some people that are a mix.I think the post between our conversation probably explains my stance a little better. I don't agree with everything I'm With Stupid has posted about it, but I think treating each case individually is probably the best way to go about it. If, as a society, we're now of the viewpoint that gender is a spectrum (which I believe it is), then I'd argue that belief is contradicted by trying to put athletes in two or three boxes but no more. Gender's a complicated thing, and I'm not sure I'll ever understand it because I've never had to question it, sort of in the same way I've never had to question my sexuality. I do think there needs to be some kind of union for transgender sportspeople, or just better organisation for these things in general, for everyone's sake. If only because it'd make every case so boring and bogged down by administration that these athletes, who are just trying to compete in an arena that feels comfortable for them really, wouldn't be put on public trial every time they want to play football or do some cycling.
Scottyboi
Well-Known Member
Lung capacity is completely different and cannot be changed it is a distinct advantage, ban them from womens sports and let them compete with the men, but they won't because they are shit at the sport and prefer throwing their weight about against women and looking good against inferior opponents due to their genetic advantage.
The perfect fumble
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- 3 Jun 2012
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I think the post between our conversation probably explains my stance a little better. I don't agree with everything I'm With Stupid has posted about it, but I think treating each case individually is probably the best way to go about it. If, as a society, we're now of the viewpoint that gender is a spectrum (which I believe it is), then I'd argue that belief is contradicted by trying to put athletes in two or three boxes but no more. Gender's a complicated thing, and I'm not sure I'll ever understand it because I've never had to question it, sort of in the same way I've never had to question my sexuality. I do think there needs to be some kind of union for transgender sportspeople, or just better organisation for these things in general, for everyone's sake. If only because it'd make every case so boring and bogged down by administration that these athletes, who are just trying to compete in an arena that feels comfortable for them really, wouldn't be put on public trial every time they want to play football or do some cycling.
Biological sex is binary mate, women don't have penises, men don't have vaginas and the real kicker, there's no such thing as a lesbian with a dick.
Gender (one's biological sex) is not complicated, it is not a social construct and one's biological sex is not a spectrum. Trans women are not women and have no right to occupy women's spaces.
Trans women don't want a....
union for transgender sportspeople, or just better organisation for these things in general, for everyone's sake.
Trans women want access to a space already occupied, and if you don't give it to them you are a hateful transphobe, or even worse a TERF (trans exclusionary radical feminist).
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Blue&whitestripes
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The IOC changed the requirements just before the last Olympics (too late for any transgender person to qualify).Is there an actual advantage, or just a perceived one? A little bit of quick googling brings up the fact that not one transgender athlete has qualified for the Olympics since the IOC allowed trans women to compete in women's sports in 2003.
Their original ruling required surgery to have taken place, the current one doesn't.
(Worth noting: at least 80%, quite possibly 85% or more, transwomen retain their genitals.)
smudgedj
Well-Known Member
Trans women (who are really men) have an unfair advantage over trans men (who are really women)
XX = female, XY = male
Regardless of surgery, regardless of hormone treatment and the clothing they decided to wear. You can not allow XY to compete as XX as this is cheating.
It’s up to women to refuse to compete against men if the sports governing bodies are too scared to rule against it.
XX = female, XY = male
Regardless of surgery, regardless of hormone treatment and the clothing they decided to wear. You can not allow XY to compete as XX as this is cheating.
It’s up to women to refuse to compete against men if the sports governing bodies are too scared to rule against it.
Biological sex is binary mate, women don't have penises, men don't have vaginas and the real kicker, there's no such thing as a lesbian with a penis
Gender (one's biological sex) is not complicated, it is not a social construct and one's biological sex is not a spectrum. Trans women are not women and have no right to occupy women's spaces.
Trans women, and it is trans women we're not talking about not trans men, don't want a....
Trans women want access to a space already occupied, and if you don't give it to them you are a hateful transphobe, or even worse a TERF (trans exclusionary radical feminist).
You've said this in a very matter of fact way but lots of people believe otherwise. I'm female by both gender and biology and that is not my view at all. Other women might disagree but most women I know aren't overly concerned by the presence of transgender women in their space. There isn't one correct view on it.
Dubai Blue
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Yep. Imagine training your whole life to become one of the best 11 players in your country, only for a man to decide he's now a woman and nick your place. It's absurd.It’s up to women to refuse to compete against men if the sports governing bodies are too scared to rule against it.
Blue&whitestripes
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- 11 Jun 2014
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- 479
Biological sex is fixed at conception, can be discerned in utero, and is immutable.
There are relatively new studies underway to determine the effect of hormones on transwomen over time *however* there is nothing to date - I repeat nothing - to indicate that any reduction in say, muscle strength, would make the biological male 'equivalent' to a biological female. In any case, males have other significant physiological advantages such as longer limbs, greater lung capacity, different skeletal build (look up 'Q angle' and running if you don't know what that means), none of which are affected by hormones.
A couple of examples:
In the USA, a young transwomen, who was a mediocre male athlete, is now winning state championships, running against females.
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/0...an-for-3-years-just-won-an-ncaa-womens-title/
In the recent Pacific games, a 41 year old transwoman won weightlifting gold, competing against females half their age.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/jul/22/current-impasse-transgender-athletes
Some more info for anyone interested:
https://fairplayforwomen.com/emma_hilton/ (video & transcript of a recent presentation)
There are relatively new studies underway to determine the effect of hormones on transwomen over time *however* there is nothing to date - I repeat nothing - to indicate that any reduction in say, muscle strength, would make the biological male 'equivalent' to a biological female. In any case, males have other significant physiological advantages such as longer limbs, greater lung capacity, different skeletal build (look up 'Q angle' and running if you don't know what that means), none of which are affected by hormones.
A couple of examples:
In the USA, a young transwomen, who was a mediocre male athlete, is now winning state championships, running against females.
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/0...an-for-3-years-just-won-an-ncaa-womens-title/
In the recent Pacific games, a 41 year old transwoman won weightlifting gold, competing against females half their age.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/jul/22/current-impasse-transgender-athletes
Some more info for anyone interested:
https://fairplayforwomen.com/emma_hilton/ (video & transcript of a recent presentation)
Scottyboi
Well-Known Member
Biological sex is fixed at conception, can be discerned in utero, and is immutable.
There are relatively new studies underway to determine the effect of hormones on transwomen over time *however* there is nothing to date - I repeat nothing - to indicate that any reduction in say, muscle strength, would make the biological male 'equivalent' to a biological female. In any case, males have other significant physiological advantages such as longer limbs, greater lung capacity, different skeletal build (look up 'Q angle' and running if you don't know what that means), none of which are affected by hormones.
A couple of examples:
In the USA, a young transwomen, who was a mediocre male athlete, is now winning state championships, running against females.
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/0...an-for-3-years-just-won-an-ncaa-womens-title/
In the recent Pacific games, a 41 year old transwoman won weightlifting gold, competing against females half their age.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/jul/22/current-impasse-transgender-athletes
Some more info for anyone interested:
https://fairplayforwomen.com/emma_hilton/ (video & transcript of a recent presentation)
It is sickening and a clear attack on female sports which has come on leaps and bounds over the years to now be ruined by men with body dis-morphia.