Trouble in Belfast

[BluePurgatory]

It might be the case that a proportion of the population have not liked the flag being there for a long time. So, by democratic means they set about having it removed.

Now I think that is fair and reasonable and not just because of the means by which it was achieved.

To go back to my earlier metaphor. If a Utd flag were flown over Albert square all the time, it would piss off City fans, just as a City flag would piss off Utd fans. The logical solution is to fly neither flag since there are also a lot of people who support neither Utd nor City and just want to get on with other things.

History has no objection in reason, especially the sectarian history of Northern Ireland. Those who are protesting are defending an unreasonable position by unreasonable means.

The rioting only started when the flag was removed!

 

[mick10]

It might be the case that a proportion of the population have not liked the flag being there for a long time. So, by democratic means they set about having it removed.

Now I think that is fair and reasonable and not just because of the means by which it was achieved.

To go back to my earlier metaphor. If a Utd flag were flown over Albert square all the time, it would piss off City fans, just as a City flag would piss off Utd fans. The logical solution is to fly neither flag since there are also a lot of people who support neither Utd nor City and just want to get on with other things.

History has no objection in reason, especially the sectarian history of Northern Ireland. Those who are protesting are defending an unreasonable position by unreasonable means.

You cannot relate football flags to the flag of a country. You can't relate a football team and its rivalry to another team to a country who has lost thousands of lives over its divisions.

 

[Kakhaber Tskhadadze K.O.T.A.]

There's a more to this than just the flag, the fact that the police have a UVF super-grass talking to them and naming their leaders, some might say that the UVF are sending out a warning to the police & authorities.

These UVF leaders could stop this trouble with one phone call - but its not in their interests to do so.

 

[johnmc]

Not by the people it wasn't. What would that vote have show? For? Against? Who knows but if it had been put to a referendum then the decision would more likely than not been accepted by all.

You want a referendum on every decision or just the ones you don't agree with? The decision was voted in by parties that were voted for by the people. If they don't like the decision vote for a party opposing the decision. I'd doubt many of those rioting actually vote. Many are too young for starters.

None of these politicians were voted in on regards to this present issue. Not on any manifesto. Never wanted a referendum in my life so nothing to do with what I agree or disagree with. If a referendum would or could stop the trouble why not? The politicians don't always make the right decisions now do they? Lots of trouble over decisions,poll tax,miners etc. The fact is if you as a politician make decisions that result in civil disorder you haven't quite got it right have you? As far as the people out rioting go I've no idea if they vote or not and no idea of their ages. I am however old enough to know the reporters,camera crews etc will zoom in on the image that'll cause the biggest wow factor (sorry terrible term).If you're under some impression that those out on the streets are all school kids you're greatly mistaken.
[/quote

The politicians weren't voted in with regards this present issue. But they were voted in to make decisions. You can have a referendum for every decision. And you can't have elections everytime an issue comes up. Politicians don't always make the right decision no, which is why there are elections and one party isn't allowed to make all the decisions for evermore. Next time there is an election these people can change their vote to a party who represents there thinking a bit more. Until then they should respect that the decision has been made by parties democratically elected.

And no it's not just kids out there but there are many under 18 year olds out rioting. Probably spurred on by the main players who are lurking in the shadows. Yes there are many adults out as well granted.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Does that mean they shouldn't do it? Despite the vote?

So ... We have a majority. We can vote to take the flag off the building. We know damn well that if we do the Orange guys will create mayhem costing millions.

But we'll still do it anyway because hey- we are a Democracy. That's really sensible. Struck a blow for Democracy. Stood up for a principle. Ignored 400 years of History. Really in the best interests of the city.

It was decided by a vote.

Yep, People vote for all sorts of things. They even voted for the Nazis. That does not make it an intrinsic good, just 'Democracy'. But unless Democracy is tempered with judgment it can cause more harm than good. The presence of a piece of cloth over the City Hall did little harm save as a symbol. But if you vote to remove the symbol in the full knowledge that you will be waving a red rag to a bull, what is the measure of your culpability in the consequences? You would still wave the red rag? Then here comes the bull. Surprised ?

 

[johnmc]

So ... We have a majority. We can vote to take the flag off the building. We know damn well that if we do the Orange guys will create mayhem costing millions.

But we'll still do it anyway because hey- we are a Democracy. That's really sensible. Struck a blow for Democracy. Stood up for a principle. Ignored 400 years of History. Really in the best interests of the city.

It was decided by a vote.

Yep, People vote for all sorts of things. They even voted for the Nazis. That does not make it an intrinsic good, just 'Democracy'. But unless Democracy is tempered with judgment it can cause more harm than good. The presence of a piece of cloth over the City Hall did little harm save as a symbol. But if you vote to remove the symbol in the full knowledge that you will be waving a red rag to a bull, what is the measure of your culpability in the consequences? You would still wave the red rag? Then here comes the bull. Surprised ?

Not saying the fact it was voted means it was correct but it means you have to accept the decisions of parties democratically elected until such a time when you can vote to replace them. That's how it works. You can't just reverse a vote because a small minority are unhappy with the decision. It is the minority as well. The majority in Northern Ireland are embarrassed by this.

 

[mammutly]

It might be the case that a proportion of the population have not liked the flag being there for a long time. So, by democratic means they set about having it removed.

Now I think that is fair and reasonable and not just because of the means by which it was achieved.

To go back to my earlier metaphor. If a Utd flag were flown over Albert square all the time, it would piss off City fans, just as a City flag would piss off Utd fans. The logical solution is to fly neither flag since there are also a lot of people who support neither Utd nor City and just want to get on with other things.

History has no objection in reason, especially the sectarian history of Northern Ireland. Those who are protesting are defending an unreasonable position by unreasonable means.

You cannot relate football flags to the flag of a country. You can't relate a football team and its rivalry to another team to a country who has lost thousands of lives over its divisions.

It is time to start looking forward. And the metaphor is valid in that there are two sides who disagree over a symbol and a larger number of people who just don't want to bothered by the likes of this dispute anymore.

The political landscape has changed and will continue to do so. There is nothing a mob can do to alter that.

 

[BlueHammer85]

It was decided by a vote.

Yep, People vote for all sorts of things. They even voted for the Nazis. That does not make it an intrinsic good, just 'Democracy'. But unless Democracy is tempered with judgment it can cause more harm than good. The presence of a piece of cloth over the City Hall did little harm save as a symbol. But if you vote to remove the symbol in the full knowledge that you will be waving a red rag to a bull, what is the measure of your culpability in the consequences? You would still wave the red rag? Then here comes the bull. Surprised ?

Not saying the fact it was voted means it was correct but it means you have to accept the decisions of parties democratically elected until such a time when you can vote to replace them. That's how it works. You can't just reverse a vote because a small minority are unhappy with the decision. It is the minority as well. The majority in Northern Ireland are embarrassed by this.

So all minorities must accept the decisions of majorities?

 

[johnmc]

Yep, People vote for all sorts of things. They even voted for the Nazis. That does not make it an intrinsic good, just 'Democracy'. But unless Democracy is tempered with judgment it can cause more harm than good. The presence of a piece of cloth over the City Hall did little harm save as a symbol. But if you vote to remove the symbol in the full knowledge that you will be waving a red rag to a bull, what is the measure of your culpability in the consequences? You would still wave the red rag? Then here comes the bull. Surprised ?

Not saying the fact it was voted means it was correct but it means you have to accept the decisions of parties democratically elected until such a time when you can vote to replace them. That's how it works. You can't just reverse a vote because a small minority are unhappy with the decision. It is the minority as well. The majority in Northern Ireland are embarrassed by this.

So all minorities must accept the decisions of majorities?

Where politics are concerned yes. Anyway Protestants aren't the minority. This is just a minority of Protestants.

 

[mick10]

It might be the case that a proportion of the population have not liked the flag being there for a long time. So, by democratic means they set about having it removed.

Now I think that is fair and reasonable and not just because of the means by which it was achieved.

To go back to my earlier metaphor. If a Utd flag were flown over Albert square all the time, it would piss off City fans, just as a City flag would piss off Utd fans. The logical solution is to fly neither flag since there are also a lot of people who support neither Utd nor City and just want to get on with other things.

History has no objection in reason, especially the sectarian history of Northern Ireland. Those who are protesting are defending an unreasonable position by unreasonable means.

You cannot relate football flags to the flag of a country. You can't relate a football team and its rivalry to another team to a country who has lost thousands of lives over its divisions.

It is time to start looking forward. And the metaphor is valid in that there are two sides who disagree over a symbol and a larger number of people who just don't want to bothered by the likes of this dispute anymore.

The political landscape has changed and will continue to do so. There is nothing a mob can do to alter that.

The metaphor is valid in your mind only. The fact you can even use it tells me you know little of the issue. Yes politics are changing and so they should. Wouldn't dream of trying to justify civil disorder what reasonable person wants that in the area they live? For the last time IT'S NOT OVER A SYMBOL! IT'S NOT OVER A FLAG! I'll leave this here because it's simply too complex to try and express to someone outside the equation. The people who wanted the removal of the flag actually want the removal of every British symbol and everything that ever represented anyone who wants to be British on this island. Some of those very people you refer to who sit on that council are the very same people who some years ago were active in the murders of numerous people and now sit in power laughing at it all. They even managed to change the name of the very police force who had hundreds of officers murdered during the 'troubles' to remove the Royal from their name a title achieved by few forces and even some army regiments. Ballot box in one hand and an armalite in the other. Well used phrase and a very appropriate term indeed. And you know what? It paid off for them. That's where a lot of the resentment and anger comes from. That is scraping the surface of a conflict that won't go away even though we really,really want it to. Really want it to.