UEFA FFP investigation - CAS decision to be announced Monday, 13th July 9.30am BST

What do you think will be the outcome of the CAS hearing?

  • Two-year ban upheld

    Votes: 197 13.1%
  • Ban reduced to one year

    Votes: 422 28.2%
  • Ban overturned and City exonerated

    Votes: 815 54.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 65 4.3%

  • Total voters
    1,499
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So is it all done now, as in they haven’t needed the 3 full days put aside for this? Just seen from MEN on twitter CAS have announced they are now going to start drafting their decision ..

I just read it as a quote from before the hearing, just outlining what will happen when the hearing finishes.

I didn't read it as a direct quote from CAS following on from the first day yesterday.
 
On the Man City Xtra twitter feed, including a link to the MEN, with a quote from CAS saying
“Following the hearing the panel will deliberate and start drafting the Arbitral Award...”

The only thing is maybe they are disingenuously putting up an earlier quote which is a statement of process, to make it look like it’s breaking news ...(?)

Ah, sounds like a false alarm then......
 
On the Man City Xtra twitter feed, including a link to the MEN, with a quote from CAS saying
“Following the hearing the panel will deliberate and start drafting the Arbitral Award...”

The only thing is maybe they are disingenuously putting up an earlier quote which is a statement of process, to make it look like it’s breaking news ...(?)
You are set the task of finding out.;)
 
So is it all done now, as in they haven’t needed the 3 full days put aside for this? Just seen from MEN on twitter CAS have announced they are now going to start drafting their decision ..

Just read the quote, and it reads like a relatively dry statement of procedure from before the CAS hearing, rather than any sort of breaking news from the hearing itself.
 
On the Man City Xtra twitter feed, including a link to the MEN, with a quote from CAS saying
“Following the hearing the panel will deliberate and start drafting the Arbitral Award...”

The only thing is maybe they are disingenuously putting up an earlier quote which is a statement of process, to make it look like it’s breaking news ...(?)

It's from yesterday's MEN article. Means Jack shit.

"City are contesting the fine and two-year ban from European competition handed down by UEFA due to 'serious breaches' of Financial Fair Play regulations, with the CAS hearing to last until Wednesday evening.

After that, CAS have given no definite timeframe on when a verdict could be announced, telling MEN Sport that: "Following the hearing, the Panel will deliberate and will start drafting the Arbitral Award containing its decision. It is not possible to predict at this time how long this process will take."
 
Project Driver. If your assumption proved to be correct and the emails were superseded by bank statements and audited accounts but Uefa and CAS still ruled against us would the auditors have a legal case against them.?
 
Can't be all done sure, they need to hear both sides and I'm sure our time slot for such is the last 5 minutes on day three..
 
Project Driver. If your assumption proved to be correct and the emails were superseded by bank statements and audited accounts but Uefa and CAS still ruled against us would the auditors have a legal case against them.?
No
 
I’ve got a bad feeling today.

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It's from yesterday's MEN article. Means Jack shit.

"City are contesting the fine and two-year ban from European competition handed down by UEFA due to 'serious breaches' of Financial Fair Play regulations, with the CAS hearing to last until Wednesday evening.

After that, CAS have given no definite timeframe on when a verdict could be announced, telling MEN Sport that: "Following the hearing, the Panel will deliberate and will start drafting the Arbitral Award containing its decision. It is not possible to predict at this time how long this process will take."

Clickbait I fell for.
 
Not sure - seems like a lot of people think we are "innocent". Pretty clear we breached (possibly by a mile) in 2014 hence the settlement (I know there are lots of arguments but we'd have had a much harder case then than now).
We breached in 2014. Of that, there is no doubt. We could claim we wouldn't have been punished if UEFA hadn't amended their rules slightly (but significantly) in the 2012/13 financial year after we'd filed our 2012 accounts. And after they'd given us multiple assurances we were on the right path. But they did, we fell foul of that and were sanctioned.

It seems to me that much of the financial chicanery that we seem to have done in that period was a direct result of believing we would be OK if we pulled it off. The sale of IP to the two spin-off companies, the acceleration of commercial revenues from Abu Dhabi were both designed to bring in additional revenue to meet the profit & loss result we thought we needed to achieve to avoid sanctions.

In the end, we breached by something like £80m, off the top of my head. Would it really be significant - deserving of a 2-season ban rather than the fine and other sanctions - if that'd been £100m, £120m or £150m? I doubt it.

In fact, had we not thought there might be a chance that we'd escape punishment, we might have said "Sod it. Let's maximise our losses now so we get them out of the way for the inevitable settlement regime". In other words, make this year look bad financially so next year looks better. So UEFA's change to the minutiae of calculating the wage figure in Annex XI had all sorts of consequences for where we are now.

I would have guessed that it's the post 2013 stuff they're mainly looking at therefore, during the period covered by the settlement agreement. So, asking the question about whether we overstated revenue to exit that settlement period. Yet the Der Spiegel emails clearly focused on the period prior to that, mainly that 2012/13 financial year. It just doesn't seem logical. UEFA would have to have solid evidence that the Abu Dhabi commercial contracts were padded beyond 2013 and, not only that, but that these revenues demonstrably came directly from ADUG.
 
Not sure - seems like a lot of people think we are "innocent". Pretty clear we breached (possibly by a mile) in 2014 hence the settlement (I know there are lots of arguments but we'd have had a much harder case then than now).
My bet is we did not infringe ffp in the current case but sailed pretty close to the wind in employing some creative accounting and maybe the odd sleight of hand. Not enough, I guess to warrant suspension, but you never know what an adjudicator will rule. I'm backing we win with a slapped wrist!
 
Whilst we should take comfort from that statement, it’s what it doesn’t say that goes to the nub of the matter and continues to trouble me.

No.2 “The owner has not put any money into the club that has not been properly declared.”

UEFA’s whole argument centres not on what Sheikh Mansour has been seen to inject into the club, but rather what the hacked emails suggest he has put into Etihad in order for that money in turn to be put into the club. I don’t doubt that City’s books accurately record that Etihad, and Etihad alone, has pumped money into the club, but that isn’t what we’re being accused of.....or at least I don’t think it is.
If Ferran Soriano had added something along the lines of “nor has he (Sheikh Mansour) pumped money into Etihad (with or without the intention of that money being funnelled back to City under the guise of sponsorship)”, then I’d be whooping for joy and shouting “take that Gill you fucker”, but he (Sorriano) didn’t say anything of that nature, or at least not that I’m aware of. It may just be semantics, but as it stands, the statement he did make could be viewed as potentially disingenuous.

My opinion as to the likely outcome of this (albeit that it’s the same kind of stab in the dark as virtually everyone else’s opinion), is that we will need to actively disprove or at the very least discredit those 2 or 3 emails that referred to SM meeting the bulk of the Etihad payment and more especially the one asking how SM’s money should be routed (ie via the club first or via Etihad first). If we’ve gone into battle without that proof, then I think we’re on to a loser, because however solid CAS are reputationally, I am consumed by the nagging feeling that they won’t want to be seen to overturn a case of this profile on regulatory grounds alone

I don't see your point. “The owner has not put any money into the club that has not been properly declared.” This seems a clear statement and can also be used to express the corollary: what hasn't been declared has not been put into the club. The accounts appear to be the "proper" record and it seems impossible that an email posing a question can be held to supersede these accounts. Unless of course City forwarded to UEFA, by mistake, an email saying, in reply, that Sheikh Mansour had agreed to an improper payment to City, not to be recorded in the books, of monies which should come from Etihad and the accounts should be falsified to show nothing irregular happened! Der Spiegel would, of course know nothing about it and City would have set Sorriano to lie through his teeth. Or maybe City have a genuine set of accounts which got mixed up and sent to UEFA.
 
So is it all done now, as in they haven’t needed the 3 full days put aside for this? Just seen from MEN on twitter CAS have announced they are now going to start drafting their decision ..

if that’s true, there are a number of possible reasons.

one is the hearing started with CAS saying to City ‘we’ve read what you have to say, we don’t need to hear from you any further, let’s hear UEFA try and justify this.’ If that’s what happened we’ve probably won already.

Another is that they listened to us politely for a day and a half, and at the end said ‘Is that it? We don’t need to hear from UEFA.’ if that is what happened, we’ve already lost.

since none of us knows what happened you can’t really read anything into the fact that the case took half the time allocated. Worry about it when we get the decision. No point until then.
 
We breached in 2014. Of that, there is no doubt. We could claim we wouldn't have been punished if UEFA hadn't amended their rules slightly (but significantly) in the 2012/13 financial year after we'd filed our 2012 accounts. And after they'd given us multiple assurances we were on the right path. But they did, we fell foul of that and were sanctioned.

It seems to me that much of the financial chicanery that we seem to have done in that period was a direct result of believing we would be OK if we pulled it off. The sale of IP to the two spin-off companies, the acceleration of commercial revenues from Abu Dhabi were both designed to bring in additional revenue to meet the profit & loss result we thought we needed to achieve to avoid sanctions.

In the end, we breached by something like £80m, off the top of my head. Would it really be significant - deserving of a 2-season ban rather than the fine and other sanctions - if that'd been £100m, £120m or £150m? I doubt it.

In fact, had we not thought there might be a chance that we'd escape punishment, we might have said "Sod it. Let's maximise our losses now so we get them out of the way for the inevitable settlement regime". In other words, make this year look bad financially so next year looks better. So UEFA's change to the minutiae of calculating the wage figure in Annex XI had all sorts of consequences for where we are now.

I would have guessed that it's the post 2013 stuff they're mainly looking at therefore, during the period covered by the settlement agreement. So, asking the question about whether we overstated revenue to exit that settlement period. Yet the Der Spiegel emails clearly focused on the period prior to that, mainly that 2012/13 financial year. It just doesn't seem logical. UEFA would have to have solid evidence that the Abu Dhabi commercial contracts were padded beyond 2013 and, not only that, but that these revenues demonstrably came directly from ADUG.

Do those Der Spiegel emails not constitute that evidence? They certainly seem to have been the primary driver for the AC. The thing I cannot get my head around is that we keep saying that our audited accounts somehow trump those emails, but our audited accounts do not address the key ‘prosecution’ issue, which is that (allegedly) Sheikh Mansour put his own money into Etihad, which in turn was fed back to City under the guise of sponsorship.....
 
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