UEFA Independent Inquiry

[jrb]

It would have been easier to get in with a ZX Spectrum hot wired to a turnstiles.

 

[jrb]

Not if the security breach was in the Liverpool FC ticket office - which I suspect is the most likely source. All it would take is for for someone in that office to go and photocopy a load of tickets and put them back where they found them. They really need to look at their own security.

Or City’s security?

 

[Brightwell Bros.]

At the Real semi final names were printed on tickets and checked against passports, and I know at least one person who chanced it and was turned away. The easiest thing to do, surely, would be something similar?

Having read the athletic/times reports, listening to a few eyewitness, and chatted to a few scousers while in Paris, I suspect the report will claim:

- There were some fake tickets, but these have been radically overstated by French authorities.
- That locals were jumping gates, but these have been overstated by British media.
- That there weren't enough gates, the route was poorly organized, and the system broke down too quickly from the pressures above.
- That the police overreacted to the system breaking down.

There's a bit too much glee, and a few too many willing to take Uefa/Paris police's side of the story, due to our rivalry. We'll see, though, I suppose.

 

[jimharri]

Not if the security breach was in the Liverpool FC ticket office - which I suspect is the most likely source. All it would take is for for someone in that office to go and photocopy a load of tickets and put them back where they found them. They really need to look at their own security.

How the hell can you accuse anyone connected with Liverpool FC (©"This Means More™) of doing anything dishonest?

 

[Bantamgaz]

Oh just do us all a favour and serve them with a ban what you gonna do wait till it happens again and punish every English club because yet AGAIN they can’t act right ????
Everyone with half a brain knew what was coming up on Saturday robbing tickets off each other ....... trying to break into the ground or using fake tickets is anyone shocked at this ????
The only shocking thing is the same club whose supporters have witnessed two tragedies still continue to act the same ...............they don’t care about anyone not even there own fans they must have know these fake tickets where gonna cause issues for folk who have gone and bought the real ones............ do they care that it maybe be families they are denying??????
Nope not a care in the world so please UEFA just punish them why should other English clubs be tarnished along side them

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

At the Real semi final names were printed on tickets and checked against passports, and I know at least one person who chanced it and was turned away. The easiest thing to do, surely, would be something similar?

Having read the athletic/times reports, listening to a few eyewitness, and chatted to a few scousers while in Paris, I suspect the report will claim:

- There were some fake tickets, but these have been radically overstated by French authorities.
- That locals were jumping gates, but these have been overstated by British media.
- That there weren't enough gates, the route was poorly organized, and the system broke down too quickly from the pressures above.
- That the police overreacted to the system breaking down.

There's a bit too much glee, and a few too many willing to take Uefa/Paris police's side of the story, due to our rivalry. We'll see, though, I suppose.

Not having it - There indication of industrial scale counterfeit tickets just from anecdotal evidence and social media posts.

 

[Bantamgaz]

At the Real semi final names were printed on tickets and checked against passports, and I know at least one person who chanced it and was turned away. The easiest thing to do, surely, would be something similar?

Having read the athletic/times reports, listening to a few eyewitness, and chatted to a few scousers while in Paris, I suspect the report will claim:

- There were some fake tickets, but these have been radically overstated by French authorities.
- That locals were jumping gates, but these have been overstated by British media.
- That there weren't enough gates, the route was poorly organized, and the system broke down too quickly from the pressures above.
- That the police overreacted to the system breaking down.

There's a bit too much glee, and a few too many willing to take Uefa/Paris police's side of the story, due to our rivalry. We'll see, though, I suppose.

Nothing to do with rivalry it’s history that backs there antics up ........... to many times over the last few decades this has happened at the majority of the time it’s one club that’s at the centre of it all

 

[Chris in London]

Can you just clarify that it is indeed a possibility to copy the QR code, stick it on a fake ticket, and for that QR code to scan through the turnstile ok if used before the real one, which in turn renders the real ticket (being scanned later) invalid? Reason being that I'm just having a discussion with a Liverpool fan on Twitter and trying to explain to him a possible reason as to why his mum's (genuine) ticket didn't scan.

The QR code has nothing to do with it. The QR code is just like a password or code number. What matters is what the computer system does with the QR code when it gets it.

If you've been to a pub for something to eat, you may have used a QR code to access the menu. So do literally hundreds of other people, because the QR code is just a quick way of accessing that particular part of the pub's website. (It would be a bit shit if these were single use codes.) Same if you've been to a museum or zoo and there is a QR code that leads you to a site with more information.

Other QR codes allow multiple uses for different functions because that is what their computers do. If you have flown within Europe, you probably used the QR code on your boarding pass to get airside (so accessing one database) before using the code when you bought something at the duty free shop (accessing a different database) before using it again at the gate (accessing the airline's database of travellers on that flight). The code on your boarding pass is unique to you but it can be used in different situations for different purposes. Also, if you download your mate's boarding card (because you booked the flights) you can screenshot his boarding card to him and the QR code will work off his phone even though you first downloaded it on to yours.

QR codes on tickets are a bit like passwords. Provided a valid QR code is shown to the scanner, it can't tell whether what it's being shown is an original ticket or a knock-off. In the same way that if someone inputs the right 4 numbers for your bank card the ATM can't tell whether it's you inputting them or someone else. (Yes I know there are cameras inside, that's different.) What the computer connected to the QR scanner can do is tell you whether that code has already been used. If it hasn't, it will allow entry. If it has, it will not.

It is possible that there was just a glitch in the system and that's why his mum's QR code didn't scan, because it just wasn't reading a valid code. It's also possible that the same QR code had already been used on a snide ticket.

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

At the Real semi final names were printed on tickets and checked against passports, and I know at least one person who chanced it and was turned away. The easiest thing to do, surely, would be something similar?

Having read the athletic/times reports, listening to a few eyewitness, and chatted to a few scousers while in Paris, I suspect the report will claim:

- There were some fake tickets, but these have been radically overstated by French authorities.
- That locals were jumping gates, but these have been overstated by British media.
- That there weren't enough gates, the route was poorly organized, and the system broke down too quickly from the pressures above.
- That the police overreacted to the system breaking down.

There's a bit too much glee, and a few too many willing to take Uefa/Paris police's side of the story, due to our rivalry. We'll see, though, I suppose.

I don't think your prediction will be far out. It looks like there were at least a couple of thousand fakes which is bad enough. That said it seems very strange for a French Government Minister to claim there were 40,000 fakes. Being so definite about a figure leaves him open to losing his job when he could have been a bit more cautious. Certainly the French will have to provide some evidence. Some Liverpool fans are obviously culpable but you can't blame those who missed the match because of the twats who jibbed in. I have seen the French police in action before. They are the worst in Europe in my view (worse even than those in Madrid). I also believe Paris is one of the worst places to host any event because crime is out of control there and the streets are not safe. Most of the locals treat visitors with contempt especially English ones.

 

[Brightwell Bros.]

Not having it - There indication of industrial scale counterfeit tickets just from anecdotal evidence and social media posts.

All I've seen is a couple of screengrabs of the same one or two posts. If they really were as widespread then it won't be difficult for the inquiry to identify that. I'm more than happy to wait and see how it plays out.

 

[Chris in London]

Seeing as all the data from the QR codes also goes the scanning system at the stadium, it would mean it has to be someone at the ticket agency that has access to all the data.

No, it means someone who had access to the tickets had access to the data.

In the case of tickets obtained via a ticket agency that could mean the ticket agency, or it could mean someone at UEFA before the tickets were dispatched to the agency.

And if the tickets came via the club, it could mean that someone either at UEFA or at the club had access to the QR codes.

Even now, though, I haven't heard of any problems with the QR codes at the Madrid end.

 

[Colin Bells Boots]

Or City’s security?

A much more likely target

 

[Brightwell Bros.]

I don't think your prediction will be far out. It looks like there were at least a couple of thousand fakes which is bad enough. That said it seems very strange for a French Government Minister to claim there were 40,000 fakes. Being so definite about a figure leaves him open to losing his job when he could have been a bit more cautious. Certainly the French will have to provide some evidence. Some Liverpool fans are obviously culpable but you can't blame those who missed the match because of the twats who jibbed in. I have seen the French police in action before. They are the worst in Europe in my view (worse even than those in Madrid). I also believe Paris is one of the worst places to host any event because crime is out of control there and the streets are not safe. Most of the locals treat visitors with contempt especially English ones.

Yeah, the numbers he was claiming were frankly ludicrous, I don't know why anyone would take them seriously. I suspect they'll be a bit worse than the British press and Liverpool have claimed. Somewhere between hundreds and a few thousand seems about right to me as well. We'll see I suppose. Digital tickets for everyone going forward I imagine, easiest way to do it.

 

[Man_City_Loyal]

its correct with the QR codes.

I had two tickets for Rangers away in Vienna a few years ago. Got all the way to the turnstile to be told my ticket had been used.

Despite pleading security wouldn't allow us in, so we went to the pub back in the city centre.

Turns out security ended up letting everyone in waiting outside

 

[west didsblue]

At the Real semi final names were printed on tickets and checked against passports, and I know at least one person who chanced it and was turned away. The easiest thing to do, surely, would be something similar?

That wouldn't work. For our match, names were hand written on and it was those names checked against IDs. Anyone buying a snide ticket would just write their own name on.
The only way that would make paper tickets more secure would be for the database to contain the name of the ticket owner giving the pre-checker with a scanner the ability to check the name that comes up against ID but that takes time. I have never seen that implemented anywhere. Much easier to have electronic tickets with QR codes (or any other type of code for that matter) that regularly update in accordance with an algorithm.

 

[M18CTID]

All I've seen is a couple of screengrabs of the same one or two posts. If they really were as widespread then it won't be difficult for the inquiry to identify that. I'm more than happy to wait and see how it plays out.

Those couple of posts on RAWK seem to back up the story that a lot of fakes were knocking about. One poster even estimated 90% of those around him in the queue where he was had snide tickets. That's an astonishing figure and while it's highly unlikely that it is representative of all Liverpool fans who made their way to the stadium (as that would mean something like 200,000 Liverpool fans went to the ground given that they had an allocation of around 20,000 tickets), it does give an idea of the scale of the problem. I wouldn't mind betting that more fans rocked up with fakes than did with genuine tickets.

 

[inchy14]

No, it means someone who had access to the tickets had access to the data.

In the case of tickets obtained via a ticket agency that could mean the ticket agency, or it could mean someone at UEFA before the tickets were dispatched to the agency.

And if the tickets came via the club, it could mean that someone either at UEFA or at the club had access to the QR codes.

Even now, though, I haven't heard of any problems with the QR codes at the Madrid end.

It came from the club, someone has passed on all the details to someone else who has then reproduced a shit load of tickets for the black market. No reason for anyone at Eufa to bother with it.

 

[Chris in London]

It came from the club, someone has passed on all the details to someone else who has then reproduced a shit load of tickets for the black market. No reason for anyone at Eufa to bother with it.

I'd wait and see what the inquiry says. I think you're right, because all the snides seem to be in the Liverpool end, but its not the only possibility.

If you watch that clip from Sky TV from the fanzone before the game where they said 50 thousand liverpool fans were in Paris, someone from TAW said a load of UEFA tickets had become available shortly before the game and had been snapped up by Liverpool fans.

You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to work out what really went on.

 

[Brightwell Bros.]

Those couple of posts on RAWK seem to back up the story that a lot of fakes were knocking about. One poster even estimated 90% of those around him in the queue where he was had snide tickets. That's an astonishing figure and while it's highly unlikely that it is representative of all Liverpool fans who made their way to the stadium (as that would mean something like 200,000 Liverpool fans went to the ground given that they had an allocation of around 20,000 tickets), it does give an idea of the scale of the problem. I wouldn't mind betting that more fans rocked up with fakes than did with genuine tickets.

I've seen a couple of the Rawk posts, and those posters have double digits and only seemed to join fairly recently. I don't know if they are the same ones? If they were doing something similar here claiming to be City fans I'd...be cynical. I certainly think there were some fake tickets knocking about, I'm just not as convinced as some others that they account for all the issues. But like I say, I'm happy enough to see how the inquiry plays out.

 

[west didsblue]

Those couple of posts on RAWK seem to back up the story that a lot of fakes were knocking about. One poster even estimated 90% of those around him in the queue where he was had snide tickets. That's an astonishing figure and while it's highly unlikely that it is representative of all Liverpool fans who made their way to the stadium (as that would mean something like 200,000 Liverpool fans went to the ground given that they had an allocation of around 20,000 tickets), it does give an idea of the scale of the problem. I wouldn't mind betting that more fans rocked up with fakes than did with genuine tickets.

Someone saying 90% were fakes is about as credible as a reporter saying there weren't any. The only way of knowing is when the tickets are scanned and found to have already been used. The only people who would be in possession of that information would be the French organisers. If the French authorities said 40,000 duplicate tickets were scanned there's no real reason to disbelieve them. If they were making it up they would more likely use a number that sounded more credible. Hopefully it will be possible for the French to work out exactly how many tickets were cloned. I suspect it's in the low hundreds but each one cloned quite a few times.