UK far right trouble

I suspect people like this are more concerned about 'racial pollution' than about girls/women being raped per se.

Indeed, I doubt these RW types give a flying fuck for the rights of women and girls. They seem to think it's OK for them to be raped, as long as it's by a 'manly' white guy. This is one of the hallmarks of a ****. After all, their heroes include the likes of Trump and that revolting p.o.s. Andrew Tate.
Fox isn’t really political. He’s a **** that has found a way to grift off “saying things you can’t say anymore”, whilst playing the victim by saying he’s persecuted because his freedom of speech is being infringed.

People then strike a chord with this and then think they’re being silenced too. When challenged, they then say they’re being talked down too and double down.

There’s literally no debate to be had with these people. They need to be ignored and left to their chambers of hate.
 
I suspect people like this are more concerned about 'racial pollution' than about girls/women being raped per se.

Indeed, I doubt these RW types give a flying fuck for the rights of women and girls. They seem to think it's OK for them to be raped, as long as it's by a 'manly' white guy. This is one of the hallmarks of a ****. After all, their heroes include the likes of Trump and that revolting p.o.s. Andrew Tate.

Wait until they find out that Andrew and Tristan Tate are the product of a Black man and a white woman.
 
The position that you have robustly staked out in this and other posts in this thread is perfectly respectable and I do understand your concerns.

So I am going to quote myself again here:

'In the case of free speech, the Victorian philosopher John Stuart Mill drew the line at incitement. He famously contrasted a newspaper article in which the author claimed that corn dealers were starvers of the poor, with the same view spoken (or communicated via a placard) right outside a corn dealer’s house. The first is a controversial opinion that should be allowed to enter the public debate, even if the view is false or immoral; the second is, in those circumstances, an act of incitement to violence and unacceptable.'

Times have changed since Mill was around. A lot now depends on whether a tweet on X or a Facebook post should be regarded as the equivalent of Mill's placard, given the speed at which modern social media operates.

The nature of incitement is also worth thinking about in this context. So let's take a look at a couple of tweets from 'resting' actor Laurence Fox. The first one was written in response to Bushra Shaikh.

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View attachment 137496

First of all, these tweets are quite typical. I see similar ones about Islam pretty much every day on X, posted by the likes of Fox, David Atherton, Darren Grimes, Mahyar Tousi, Kelvin Mackenzie, and others.

Secondly, their claims they make are almost invariably false. For example, there is actually a long queue of moderate Muslims lining up to condemn acts of terrorism, both online and in reputable, widely circulated publications. If I attempted to list and quote from these many sources, if I tried to summarise them, this reply would probably need to be about 10,000 words long.

Suffice it to say that, surprisingly, it is possible to find within Islam the equivalents of Gandhi, of Dr King, namely, prominent Muslim advocates of non-violence. It's just that most people won't have heard of figures like Abdul Ghaffar Khan (an ethnic Pashtun from the tribal regions of Pakistan whose 100,000 Muslim followers peacefully resisted British colonial rule in India), or be familiar with the blistering 600-pages long condemnation of suicide bombing authored by the influential Pakistani cleric Muhammad Tahrir ul-Qadri in 2010, simply because the relevant sources aren't written in English.

But that's another story. Let's get back to the subject of incitement.

Is there overt incitement here, like there was in the case of Wayne O'Rourke, Julie Sweeney, and Lucy Connolly?

Obviously not.

And should Islam be criticised in this manner?

Of course. After all, moderate Muslims do just the same thing in their books. Here are a couple of examples (taken from Tariq Ramadan's Pelican guide to Islam and Ziauddin Sardar's Reading the Qur'an):

"Muslims have waged wars of expansion, have established colonial-type regimes, enforced religious conversion, upheld slavery, manipulated religion and exploited their fellow human beings."

"There are very few places in the Muslim world where one is genuinely free to express oneself, where open criticism of power is actually tolerated, or where criticism of obnoxious religious practices is not seen simply as an attack on Islam itself."


Fair enough. But here's what is currently bothering me.

I think that the unspoken, perlocutionary intent of the above tweets is to incite, to provoke an animus against Muslims in general, including those who are as repulsed by Islamism and Salafi-Jihadism as the rest of us. Without specific instructions, these drip fed tweets direct emotions along a certain trajectory, leaving others to fill in the gaps, which the likes of O'Rourke, Sweeney and Connolly obviously have.

Given that Fox, Atherton, Grimes et al. are also 'blue tick wankers', and have acquired numerous followers on X, I have therefore been left wondering whether what they do is actually far worse than what O'Rourke, Sweeney and Connolly got up to.

To deploy an analogy from The Wire, they are the equivalents of Stringer Bell, of Avon Barksdale, whereas those presently languishing in jail are, with the exception of Yaxley-Lennon, like the low hanging fruit who reside on the corners of West Baltimore, the ones who do get arrested.

Of course, I can and do go on X to challenge their views. And my replies get read by almost nobody.

So what is to be done about this present state of affairs and these echo chambers with their pernicious effects?

In their book The Devil's Long Tail: Religious And Other Radicals In The Internet Marketplace, David Stevens and Kieron O'Hara favour regulating social media with the lightest possible touch in the interests of free speech. It would take too long to summarise and critique their argument here (mainly because I've completely forgotten most of it). But it's an excellent book and I do recall that they make their case very persuasively.

The only problem is that it was published in 2015 and a lot has happened since. For example nowadays, under the stewardship of Musk, X arguably resembles an anarchic state of nature in need of a Hobbesian Leviathan. And there have also been instances of livestreamed acts of terror.

So in response to my own question, I really don't know. I wish I had Stevens and O'Hara's and your confidence about how to uphold free speech and where the line should be drawn in terms of what is and isn't acceptable. But at the moment I don't.
To speak truth to power (mob, institution, or ruler) is energy sapping and not without risk.
Some people either follow along blindly, whilst others know that what they are doing is wrong, yet continue on in silence, in the hope that they will survive until things change for the better for them.
 
The problem with Democrats is that they defend feminism or anti-racism, sometimes and for some, depends.

You will never see them condemn minority racism towards whites, which exists more in deeds and words than white racism against minorities.

You will never see them talk about feminism in Saudi Arabia or in African-American neighborhoods.

You will never see them condemn the rape of German civilian women in World War II. For them, those women deserved to be raped. However, if today you look for a second at a woman passing by you, you have sexually assaulted her with your gaze.


It's all inconsistencies and subjective prejudices. And as soon as the Democrats got into that absurd cloud, people left them aside.

They should talk about solving the economy, producing jobs, and making life easier for citizens.

Wrong thread surely?
 
Spring was done for violent disorder, wasn't he?

As it happens, I did answer his question on X.

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I don't know who Spring is but there's lots of reports of people being locked up for chanting 'who the fuck is Allah?' which is a blasphemy law by the backdoor whether they've been locked up for violent disorder (which can be committed by speaking/chanting), malicious communications or any of the other number of speech crimes we have in this country.

Fox will always have a large audience for his posts if he's rightly calling out two-tier justice while there's countless examples of people serving prisons sentences for crimes that involve speech offences that are far longer than those for violent crime.
 
I don't know who Spring is but there's lots of reports of people being locked up for chanting 'who the fuck is Allah?' which is a blasphemy law by the backdoor whether they've been locked up for violent disorder (which can be committed by speaking/chanting), malicious communications or any of the other number of speech crimes we have in this country.

Fox will always have a large audience for his posts if he's rightly calling out two-tier justice while there's countless examples of people serving prisons sentences for crimes that involve speech offences that are far longer than those for violent crime.
No, he wasn’t locked up for chanting, he was locked up for using threatening and violent behaviour towards the police. The person in that top attachment actually pleaded guilty to violent disorder after reviewing the footage they had of him.

Like the rest who were arrested and plead guilty, they weren’t done for saying or writing certain words, it was because they were violent or trying to incite violence. Nobody has been shutdown or cancelled, otherwise the likes of Farage and Fox would be in jail too.

Seems the reports you are reading are all from one side of the debate, probably those who were in favour of what transgressed.

Is there any evidence that somebody got jailed for saying ‘Fuck Allah’, or the like?
 
No, he wasn’t locked up for chanting, he was locked up for using threatening and violent behaviour towards the police. The person in that top attachment actually pleaded guilty to violent disorder after reviewing the footage they had of him.

Like the rest who were arrested and plead guilty, they weren’t done for saying or writing certain words, it was because they were violent or trying to incite violence. Nobody has been shutdown or cancelled, otherwise the likes of Farage and Fox would be in jail too.

Seems the reports you are reading are all from one side of the debate, probably those who were in favour of what transgressed.

Is there any evidence that somebody got jailed for saying ‘Fuck Allah’, or the like?

Just googled that case and can't see any report of any violence used against the police by Spring? Where have you read that he was violent and what kind of behaviour was threatening? Was it his speech that was threatening?

I'd have to see the behaviour towards the police to make a judgement on that particular case but it seems like the threatening behaviour comes from him chanting 'who the fuck is allah?'. Or at least that's the way it's being reported.



Also, the stuff about people being locked up for chanting or speech crimes has been all over the news btw (i'm astonished that people have missed it)...I keep getting asked for individual cases but there's dozens and dozens of cases where people have been arrested for speech crimes. I'd implore people to google and there'll be lots of results on the first page that come up including people arrested and prosecuted for falsely reporting the attacker was called Ali and an asylum seeker.
 
I don't know who Spring is but there's lots of reports of people being locked up for chanting 'who the fuck is Allah?' which is a blasphemy law by the backdoor whether they've been locked up for violent disorder (which can be committed by speaking/chanting), malicious communications or any of the other number of speech crimes we have in this country.

Fox will always have a large audience for his posts if he's rightly calling out two-tier justice while there's countless examples of people serving prisons sentences for crimes that involve speech offences that are far longer than those for violent crime.
Want a bellend whe all know it’s Who the fuck is Alice!
 

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