Unambitious, Magnanimous, Docile, Lemming-Like Fans

[HelloCity]

"Unambitious, Magnanimous, Docile, Lemming-Like Fans"


Pretty much sums up the nob jockey who made this thread.

 

[ManCityFC]

Soulboy thanks for dissecting my post point by point I could do the same but haven't quite got to grips with this quoting business so will take your points in the order above.

Some things that you say I got factually incorrect are actually subjective points of view, where you and I differ. You obviously have a Fergie like understanding of what constitute facts.

Second half of this season is easier as we have four 'easier' home games in the second half of the season than the first where we played all the top four at home. Assuming we are more likley to win at home than away it would suggest we are more likely to get additional points in the second half of the season. I understand how you misinterpreted this as by last year I should have been clearer and put last season.

Moyes has done excellent - he has had limited resources - you seem to think that a great manager can win things without having had the resources to back him up. I would be interested to see which clubs over recent times have had success without having spent heavily in the side. Mourinho was appointed by Porto before he had won anything.

In regard to Fergie the season after they finished 2nd they finished 11th so I guess you would have had him sacked at that point ? You can suggest that having had Fergies record at Aberdeen that you would have adopted a different stance - but most of the arguments against Hughes are that he has shown no progress in six months - neither had Fergie after 2 1/2 years. You then state Fergies track record as some kind of justification as to why you wouldn't have sacked Fergie but Hughes track record at a club like Blackburn was very very good imo.

The O'Neill point I will give you, I should know better than to trust my memory, but I would still put Hughes record at Blackburn up against O'Neills, the league cup has always been a competition for second string teams and O'Neill won one of those trophies against Tranmere ! Hughes got Blackburn to three successive semi finals and a top six finish - which incidentally O'Neill didn't achieve with Leicester.

I said Horton was 'probably the best' don't misrepresent me, and lets face it we are comparing against a very low benchmark. There was a short period under Horton where I saw us play some great stuff with Rosler, Quinn and Beagrie or perhaps I have rose tinted glasses being at an age where I was watching the Blues as a young youth going to games on the bevvies with a load of mates.

I never said I didn't want a foreign manager, don't misrepresent me. I said I would 'rather' have a British manager. Offer me Mourinho and we can have a different debate. The fact is that of the managers available I think we have one of the best. More importantly he is ambitious and has a potentially long career ahead of him - just what we need.

You obviously don't rate his track record, I do, it tells me that he can build a good side on limited resources and that suggests with bigger resources that allow him to compete that he could build a top four side and win things.

The thing is, you seem to be missing the point here. I don't think anyone, certainly not me anyway, would dispute that we need to create stability and stick with a manager. It's obvious, so we are in agreement about that. I understand all your rather flaky opinions on managers that have been given time and came good. 100% understand that, and I agree with you on some of them.

But the biggest problem most people have on here, or again, certainly myself anyway is the following:

1) He did a decent'ish job at Blackburn yes, but when he joined us he was almost certainly aware that he had limited resources. Now, one would assume that you would immediately try and get the best out of the players you have got, but that certainly isn't what has happened. He has alienated the some of the players that he inherited and thus, now has a revolting team that do not want to play for him. You can blame that on Sven if you want, blame it on what you want in fact, but the job of a manger is to pull the team together and get the best out of them. That hasn't happened.

2) In favour of managing players, he has decided to leak little messages out to the press, to alienate the players even further. I despise that shite personally. It is out of order and should be kept behind closed doors.

3) His team selections have been rather bizzare to say the very least. Playing our players all over the shop and expecting miracles is not sensible, it's just rediculous. Now again, you can blame injuries to a certain degree, but that is not the whole story is it? Some of his substitutions when we are losing have got me scratching my head now as I write this. I just cannot figure them out at all.

4) The style of football is a worry to me. A few disagree with me on this, but I see the team start out knocking it about and playing fairly attractive stuff, then we concede a goal and immediately resort to the long ball. There is no panache, no confidence and no class in our play at the moment.

5) The main thing that vexes me is the fact that he is allowed a blank chequebook to correct all these problems. Now if he has managed to persuade our new owners that this is the best course of action, then well done to him, but the players we are being linked with are now very much worrying me too. We know what Blackburn played like and I don't think anyone wants us to create a team of ankle kickers that will just grind out a result every other game.

Now in summary, as I said earlier, he has another 3 games for me. He has the rest of January, because if he doesn't sort it by then, and if we drop a significant amount of point, then all our patience will have run out I predict, and we will almost certainly be rooted to the bottom of the table. I don't buy in to this bollocks that we won't go down because we have money. He has this window to repair the team he has totally demoralised. Bridge is a good start, and I would continue to concentrate on that back four first if I was him. So I remain optimistic, but time will tell. However, the guy has never managed 'big names' before and has no experience of coaching them, so I doubt we will see any in this window.

 

[Blue Mooner]

Soulboy thanks for dissecting my post point by point I could do the same but haven't quite got to grips with this quoting business so will take your points in the order above.

Some things that you say I got factually incorrect are actually subjective points of view, where you and I differ. You obviously have a Fergie like understanding of what constitute facts.

Second half of this season is easier as we have four 'easier' home games in the second half of the season than the first where we played all the top four at home. Assuming we are more likley to win at home than away it would suggest we are more likely to get additional points in the second half of the season. I understand how you misinterpreted this as by last year I should have been clearer and put last season.

Moyes has done excellent - he has had limited resources - you seem to think that a great manager can win things without having had the resources to back him up. I would be interested to see which clubs over recent times have had success without having spent heavily in the side. Mourinho was appointed by Porto before he had won anything.

In regard to Fergie the season after they finished 2nd they finished 11th so I guess you would have had him sacked at that point ? You can suggest that having had Fergies record at Aberdeen that you would have adopted a different stance - but most of the arguments against Hughes are that he has shown no progress in six months - neither had Fergie after 2 1/2 years. You then state Fergies track record as some kind of justification as to why you wouldn't have sacked Fergie but Hughes track record at a club like Blackburn was very very good imo.

The O'Neill point I will give you, I should know better than to trust my memory, but I would still put Hughes record at Blackburn up against O'Neills, the league cup has always been a competition for second string teams and O'Neill won one of those trophies against Tranmere ! Hughes got Blackburn to three successive semi finals and a top six finish - which incidentally O'Neill didn't achieve with Leicester.

I said Horton was 'probably the best' don't misrepresent me, and lets face it we are comparing against a very low benchmark. There was a short period under Horton where I saw us play some great stuff with Rosler, Quinn and Beagrie or perhaps I have rose tinted glasses being at an age where I was watching the Blues as a young youth going to games on the bevvies with a load of mates.

I never said I didn't want a foreign manager, don't misrepresent me. I said I would 'rather' have a British manager. Offer me Mourinho and we can have a different debate. The fact is that of the managers available I think we have one of the best. More importantly he is ambitious and has a potentially long career ahead of him - just what we need.

You obviously don't rate his track record, I do, it tells me that he can build a good side on limited resources and that suggests with bigger resources that allow him to compete that he could build a top four side and win things.

The thing is, you seem to be missing the point here. I don't think anyone, certainly not me anyway, would dispute that we need to create stability and stick with a manager. It's obvious, so we are in agreement about that. I understand all your rather flaky opinions on managers that have been given time and came good. 100% understand that, and I agree with you on some of them.

But the biggest problem most people have on here, or again, certainly myself anyway is the following:

1) He did a decent'ish job at Blackburn yes, but when he joined us he was almost certainly aware that he had limited resources. Now, one would assume that you would immediately try and get the best out of the players you have got, but that certainly isn't what has happened. He has alienated the some of the players that he inherited and thus, now has a revolting team that do not want to play for him. You can blame that on Sven if you want, blame it on what you want in fact, but the job of a manger is to pull the team together and get the best out of them. That hasn't happened.

2) In favour of managing players, he has decided to leak little messages out to the press, to alienate the players even further. I despise that shite personally. It is out of order and should be kept behind closed doors.

3) His team selections have been rather bizzare to say the very least. Playing our players all over the shop and expecting miracles is not sensible, it's just rediculous. Now again, you can blame injuries to a certain degree, but that is not the whole story is it? Some of his substitutions when we are losing have got me scratching my head now as I write this. I just cannot figure them out at all.

4) The style of football is a worry to me. A few disagree with me on this, but I see the team start out knocking it about and playing fairly attractive stuff, then we concede a goal and immediately resort to the long ball. There is no panache, no confidence and no class in our play at the moment.

5) The main thing that vexes me is the fact that he is allowed a blank chequebook to correct all these problems. Now if he has managed to persuade our new owners that this is the best course of action, then well done to him, but the players we are being linked with are now very much worrying me too. We know what Blackburn played like and I don't think anyone wants us to create a team of ankle kickers that will just grind out a result every other game.

Now in summary, as I said earlier, he has another 3 games for me. He has the rest of January, because if he doesn't sort it by then, and if we drop a significant amount of point, then all our patience will have run out I predict, and we will almost certainly be rooted to the bottom of the table. I don't buy in to this bollocks that we won't go down because we have money. He has this window to repair the team he has totally demoralised. Bridge is a good start, and I would continue to concentrate on that back four first if I was him. So I remain optimistic, but time will tell. However, the guy has never managed 'big names' before and has no experience of coaching them, so I doubt we will see any in this window.

Man City FC - I understand and buy in to a lot of the points you make but I think some of us feel he has rocked the boat in the short term to change the attitude and lax approach to their profession and that this is short term pain for long term gain imo.

I think his record is decent - he is not the perfect appointment - I would rather see someone with trophies under their belt but I think you will find that there are very few realistic alternatives with all the credentials we would look for. This is a manager who has done 10 years in management and done well with the resources at his disposal.

I like the fact he has worked under Fergie and played abroad at Barcelona bringing a mix of influences, it would appear that he has upset the camp somewhat but I like that he is not prepared to pander to the players just to be popular - anybody could do that.

I welcome that he is trying to address the fitness issues - when you look at Un*ted the one thing that stands out about them is the incredible fitness and how they get about the pitch.

I have seen some encouraging performances and I think he deserves more time and I don't believe as a fan you can make a decision about sacking a manager without the full facts of what is actually going behind the scenes and who may possibly be available.

I respect your opinion ManCity FC and you argue the case cogently and intelligently however I remain to be convinced that sacking him this early in his tenure is the right approach.

 

[ManCityFC]

The thing is, you seem to be missing the point here. I don't think anyone, certainly not me anyway, would dispute that we need to create stability and stick with a manager. It's obvious, so we are in agreement about that. I understand all your rather flaky opinions on managers that have been given time and came good. 100% understand that, and I agree with you on some of them.

But the biggest problem most people have on here, or again, certainly myself anyway is the following:

1) He did a decent'ish job at Blackburn yes, but when he joined us he was almost certainly aware that he had limited resources. Now, one would assume that you would immediately try and get the best out of the players you have got, but that certainly isn't what has happened. He has alienated the some of the players that he inherited and thus, now has a revolting team that do not want to play for him. You can blame that on Sven if you want, blame it on what you want in fact, but the job of a manger is to pull the team together and get the best out of them. That hasn't happened.

2) In favour of managing players, he has decided to leak little messages out to the press, to alienate the players even further. I despise that shite personally. It is out of order and should be kept behind closed doors.

3) His team selections have been rather bizzare to say the very least. Playing our players all over the shop and expecting miracles is not sensible, it's just rediculous. Now again, you can blame injuries to a certain degree, but that is not the whole story is it? Some of his substitutions when we are losing have got me scratching my head now as I write this. I just cannot figure them out at all.

4) The style of football is a worry to me. A few disagree with me on this, but I see the team start out knocking it about and playing fairly attractive stuff, then we concede a goal and immediately resort to the long ball. There is no panache, no confidence and no class in our play at the moment.

5) The main thing that vexes me is the fact that he is allowed a blank chequebook to correct all these problems. Now if he has managed to persuade our new owners that this is the best course of action, then well done to him, but the players we are being linked with are now very much worrying me too. We know what Blackburn played like and I don't think anyone wants us to create a team of ankle kickers that will just grind out a result every other game.

Now in summary, as I said earlier, he has another 3 games for me. He has the rest of January, because if he doesn't sort it by then, and if we drop a significant amount of point, then all our patience will have run out I predict, and we will almost certainly be rooted to the bottom of the table. I don't buy in to this bollocks that we won't go down because we have money. He has this window to repair the team he has totally demoralised. Bridge is a good start, and I would continue to concentrate on that back four first if I was him. So I remain optimistic, but time will tell. However, the guy has never managed 'big names' before and has no experience of coaching them, so I doubt we will see any in this window.

Man City FC - I understand and buy in to a lot of the points you make but I think some of us feel he has rocked the boat in the short term to change the attitude and lax approach to their profession and that this is short term pain for long term gain imo.

I think his record is decent - he is not the perfect appointment - I would rather see someone with trophies under their belt but I think you will find that there are very few realistic alternatives with all the credentials we would look for. This is a manager who has done 10 years in management and done well with the resources at his disposal.

I like the fact he has worked under Fergie and played abroad at Barcelona bringing a mix of influences, it would appear that he has upset the camp somewhat but I like that he is not prepared to pander to the players just to be popular - anybody could do that.

I welcome that he is trying to address the fitness issues - when you look at Un*ted the one thing that stands out about them is the incredible fitness and how they get about the pitch.

I have seen some encouraging performances and I think he deserves more time and I don't believe as a fan you can make a decision about sacking a manager without the full facts of what is actually going behind the scenes and who may possibly be available.

I respect your opinion ManCity FC and you argue the case cogently and intelligently however I remain to be convinced that sacking him this early in his tenure is the right approach.

Fair enough pal, let's see what happens in the coming months. I hope you are right by the way, I really and honestly do, as this isn't a 'get the ex-rag out' rant. It is genuine concern. But as I said earlier, the title of the post was far too harsh, and some of the points about the fans are the words of a hangover fuelled rant. (Funny how everything seems worst with a hangover, and it ain't as though I am a teenager, so I should be used to it by now!) Anyway, I apologise again to anyone I offended. It was not the point of the thread even if that was indeed what it did. But I do stand by the point I made, that if things don't improve by the end of January, then I can't see him being here much longer. I am an impatient twat, but I sense it isn't just my patience that is running out now.

 

[Blue Mooner]

Man City FC - I understand and buy in to a lot of the points you make but I think some of us feel he has rocked the boat in the short term to change the attitude and lax approach to their profession and that this is short term pain for long term gain imo.

I think his record is decent - he is not the perfect appointment - I would rather see someone with trophies under their belt but I think you will find that there are very few realistic alternatives with all the credentials we would look for. This is a manager who has done 10 years in management and done well with the resources at his disposal.

I like the fact he has worked under Fergie and played abroad at Barcelona bringing a mix of influences, it would appear that he has upset the camp somewhat but I like that he is not prepared to pander to the players just to be popular - anybody could do that.

I welcome that he is trying to address the fitness issues - when you look at Un*ted the one thing that stands out about them is the incredible fitness and how they get about the pitch.

I have seen some encouraging performances and I think he deserves more time and I don't believe as a fan you can make a decision about sacking a manager without the full facts of what is actually going behind the scenes and who may possibly be available.

I respect your opinion ManCity FC and you argue the case cogently and intelligently however I remain to be convinced that sacking him this early in his tenure is the right approach.

Fair enough pal, let's see what happens in the coming months. I hope you are right by the way, I really and honestly do, as this isn't a 'get the ex-rag out' rant. It is genuine concern. But as I said earlier, the title of the post was far too harsh, and some of the points about the fans are the words of a hangover fuelled rant. (Funny how everything seems worst with a hangover, and it ain't as though I am a teenager, so I should be used to it by now!) Anyway, I apologise again to anyone I offended. It was not the point of the thread even if that was indeed what it did. But I do stand by the point I made, that if things don't improve by the end of January, then I can't see him being here much longer. I am an impatient twat, but I sense it isn't just my patience that is running out now.

We're all passionate blues mate I understand totally your frustration. I'd be lying if I said I was happy with our current league position, I'm just not sure the fault is all with Hughes and I'm not sure we can draw a conclusion half way through the season.

If the board choose to get rid of Hughes at the end of Jan and we genuinely come up with a top, top drawer replacement then I would do as I have always done and get right behind the new man.

I just hope at some point we have a guy in place who can genuinely build this club for the long term and I would have no problem if that was Hughes.

Blue Army.

 

[Timbobs]

still yawning.

This

 

[1_barry_conlon]

OMG How can a supposed City fan make so many factual errors in just one post!!!

I'd swear this was a wind-up such is your dodgy memory mate!

If I can just reply to a few of the more pertinent ones...

Far from being docile and enjoying the pain that we have endured over the last 30 years I want exactly what you do – success - but I believe that success can only come to this club by changing the formula we have tried for 30 odd years of sacking managers.

All those who are against Hughes say that he has taken us backwards - but surely you can only say that if you are using the same measures otherwise the comparison is unfair.

If you are saying he has taken us back since the Sven reign then Sven had a whole season on which to be measured in terms of our progress, surely Hughes deserves the same in order for you to make a fair comparison of progress or not ?

The fact that we had easier home fixtures in the first half of the season last year and that this season we have played all the top four at home means that we have four easier home fixtures in the second half of the season - potentially worth an additional 12 points.

So what you're saying is that we've got a far harder second half to the season coming up... fuck! Now we are in trouble! If this first half of the season was "easier" and we're but 2 points off the drop, doesn't that worry you in the slightest that, in your opinion, the second half will be even more difficult?

On the issue of Hughes record he has managed a national side that was recognised as a successful reign hence why Blackburn chose to appoint him - Anyone with a modicum of sense knows that even a Mourinho would struggle to get Wales beyond even a qualifying group.

Northern Ireland beat Spain. Scotland beat France. Are you suggesting Walter Smith or whoever is in charge of Northern Ireland (and I don't even know who it is!) would be okay for us?

For a side of the size and wealth of Blackburn you have to say he had success, inheriting a relegation threatened side and - taking them to the top six and two semi-finals. Anyone who watched the Blackburn v Chelsea semi final the game went to extra time and Blackburn were hugely unlucky to lose - that record would stand up to any other manager of a team of a similar size.

Yeah, and I remember Chesterfield losing unluckily in a semi-final as well. And didn't Dave Jones at Cardiff actually get to the FA Cup Final? Are they better managers than Hughes?

You can learn a lot from history:

David Moyes joined from Preston and at one point Everton finished 17th in the Premier league – no doubt flirting with relegation all season – on your measures he would have been gone before the season was out.

The reality is that Everton are skint. They couldn't afford to whizz him. But, you're right, he's done an excellent job keeping Everton challenging the top 6. Never won a thing, mind you. So not even as successful as Harry Redknapp in that case.

Fergie Joined from Aberdeen – Yes he had success there – but he inherited a side that finished 4th under Ron Atkinson and then in Fergusons first season in charge they finished 11th – you would have had him sacked – no doubt stating that managing Aberdeen is different from managing a big club like Man United

The Rags also finished runners up the following season, his first FULL season in charge. But just look at Ferguson's record before the Rags appointed him, it was one of the best in Europe. That's why they showed faith in him.

Martin O’Neill started his career at Wycombe – yes Wycombe - then made his name at Leicester – Hughes record at Blackburn more than stands up to O’Neills at Leicester who in their time I would argue were premier league clubs of equal stature. Does the fact that O’Neill didn’t win anything at Leicester make him a bad manager and not worthy of a top job ? Of course not, you have to remember he was managing Leicester.

No need to answer this one really. A previous poster highlighted the NUMEROUS trophies O'Neill's won... that seemed to have passed you by!

Like many City fans over the years you are reverting to type associating a big name with being successful. I have lost count of the number of big name managers we have had which have resulted in precisely no success and probably the best we have had was Brian Horton who was pilloried when he joined from Oxford.

The best manager we had was Brian Horton? Are you serious? We narrowly avoided relegation, lost 5-0 at the swamp, his only claim to fame was that he never got relegated. Never got another top job after leaving City, so it wasn't just us that thought he was limited.

I would rather have a young British manager that has demonstrated clear management capability than an over the hill world class manager who has won things but never managed in the premiership – that is just as much as a risk if not more so.

Interesting that you don't want a foreign manager in... and that lack of Premiership knowledge is such a hindrance. So how come Ferguson, Ranieri, Mourinho, Scolari, Benitez and Wenger... NONE of them had Premiership experience when they were appointed! In fact, NO top 4 side has appointed a manager from within the Premiership, to date!

Ferguson stated in the press only this week that the one advantage he sees at Un*ted over Chelsea is that he is able to plan over 3-4 years and continue a dynasty – no doubt the new manager will do likewise.

I have seen enough this season in some of the performances to see that when we have a full squad we can play some great football and on our day can match the best.

I believe on his track record that Hughes has the credentials necessary and with money can bring success to this club I don’t believe that this can be achieved in six months !

One simple question... what track record? No experience of top class signings, no record of dealing with world class players, no record of building a team that is both entertaining and successful...

Soulboy thanks for dissecting my post point by point I could do the same but haven't quite got to grips with this quoting business so will take your points in the order above.

Some things that you say I got factually incorrect are actually subjective points of view, where you and I differ. You obviously have a Fergie like understanding of what constitute facts.

Second half of this season is easier as we have four 'easier' home games in the second half of the season than the first where we played all the top four at home. Assuming we are more likley to win at home than away it would suggest we are more likely to get additional points in the second half of the season. I understand how you misinterpreted this as by last year I should have been clearer and put last season.

Moyes has done excellent - he has had limited resources - you seem to think that a great manager can win things without having had the resources to back him up. I would be interested to see which clubs over recent times have had success without having spent heavily in the side. Mourinho was appointed by Porto before he had won anything.

In regard to Fergie the season after they finished 2nd they finished 11th so I guess you would have had him sacked at that point ? You can suggest that having had Fergies record at Aberdeen that you would have adopted a different stance - but most of the arguments against Hughes are that he has shown no progress in six months - neither had Fergie after 2 1/2 years. You then state Fergies track record as some kind of justification as to why you wouldn't have sacked Fergie but Hughes track record at a club like Blackburn was very very good imo.

The O'Neill point I will give you, I should know better than to trust my memory, but I would still put Hughes record at Blackburn up against O'Neills, the league cup has always been a competition for second string teams and O'Neill won one of those trophies against Tranmere ! Hughes got Blackburn to three successive semi finals and a top six finish - which incidentally O'Neill didn't achieve with Leicester.

Just to take issue with the O'Neill point. Personally,and i think the majority of blues would settle for a league cup win no matter who it's against in the final rather than attend 3 successive semi-finals and come away with sweet fa. A trophy is a trophy. O'Neill also took Celtic to the UEFA cup final which today is no mean feat considering the amount of teams that actually play in it. And funnilly enough Leicesters decline started when O'Neill left!

 

[PragueBlue]

Interesting that you don't want a foreign manager in... and that lack of Premiership knowledge is such a hindrance. So how come Ferguson, Ranieri, Mourinho, Scolari, Benitez and Wenger... NONE of them had Premiership experience when they were appointed! In fact, NO top 4 side has appointed a manager from within the Premiership, to date!

And what do all of those managers have in common? They all went to clubs at or near the top of the table that consistently challenge for trophies. I wonder what any of those managers would have won with Blackburn and Wales. Let's also not forget that for every Wenger or Mourinho there is a Ramos or Perrin.

Having said that, I would quite like to see what a Mourinho/Mancini could do but now is not the right time IMO. Let's see it through to the Summer and then judge MH after a complete season. If we finish in the bottom half, then I am sure he'll be gone. Top half and he'll probably stay.

 

[stonerblue]

[quote="C1TY4LIFE
We could have the best manager in the world and we still won't win cups and make it to the tp 4 or fight for UEFA place instead of relegation and you know why?

Just think whats the difference between ourselves and Liverpool, United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Villa and Everton????

THEY HAVE ALL KEPT A MANAGER FOR LONGER THEN 3 SEASONS!!

Don't forget Villa and Everton were in our situation once as well never archived bugger all always a mid table team now they have kept a manger long enough to build a team with players that are use to there system they are in the top 6 of the table our problem has always been if you don't bring instant success or at least keep us in a reasonable position then your sacked.

WE NEED TO STOP MANAGER CHANGING WE WILL GET NO WHERE IF US FANS AND THE CLUB CONTINUE TO HAVE THIS ATTITUDE OF INSTANT SUCCESS

CTID!
BLUE4EVA!

I agree, let's go and find a decent one and stick with him then![/quote]

 

[bowdonblue]

Bowdon Blue...

I really do have to pick you up on a couple of comments there matey bobs....

Sorry Soulboy, I meant to say "since ADUG took over" in my post, but hopefully that was clear from the reference to Bridge & Robbie.