United Thread 2015/16

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Gary James said:
At last, you agree that the LFC MUFC rivalry was not around throughout history (so therefore not directly connected with the ship canal) and that it is a more modern rivalry. Now it'd be worth telling everyone else connected with MUFC and the media that.
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The ship canal did not create a footballing rivalry, it created animosity between the cities of Liverpool and Manchester (Salford). This resentment regarding jobs was very real at the time and if you watch the attached MSC documentary that was filmed in the 1970's, the Salford dockers have nothing but scorn for the Liverpool dockers. It's a great bit of footage.

Also, the early 70's was 45 years ago. This is not by any stretch a 'modern' rivalry. And it wasn't created by Alex Ferguson, either. It's one thing making statements of fact, as a respected historian, but when you merge these with your own opinions, then this can sometimes come unstuck. Especially when people who were living and breathing in those decades have the gift of recollection.

Fast forward the clip to 4 mins. As a historian you will enjoy it. Very insightful.

 
we all have a history that is well over 100 years old,liverpool utd city and so on,but I always find it funny that when Liverpool and utd talk history,its only the latter half mentioned,wonder why that is ?
 
shallyman said:
The ship canal did not create a footballing rivalry, it created animosity between the cities of Liverpool and Manchester (Salford). This resentment regarding jobs was very real at the time and if you watch the attached MSC documentary that was filmed in the 1970's, the Salford dockers have nothing but scorn for the Liverpool dockers. It's a great bit of footage.

Also, the early 70's was 45 years ago. This is not by any stretch a 'modern' rivalry. And it wasn't created by Alex Ferguson, either. It's one thing making statements of fact, as a respected historian, but when you merge these with your own opinions, then this can sometimes come unstuck. Especially when people who were living and breathing in those decades have the gift of recollection.

Fast forward the clip to 4 mins. As a historian you will enjoy it. Very insightful.

Click to expand...



A rivalry between cities is not a rivalry between football clubs. If you think it is then please explain why there has never been an intense rivalry between City & Liverpool, City & Everton or United & Everton.

As I posted previously, at no time in the 1960s (a period I lived through as a match going fan) was there the slightest hint of any tribal rivalry between United and Liverpool and their fans. United's rivalry was always with City as it remains to this day.
 
Hey bastards watching. You're not out rivals. Enjoy your rivalry with Liverpool and Everton.

Thanks for not making our Real rivals stronger though raggies.
 
We're bigger than you swallow that raggy twats. We've better team, better manager, better fans ,better stadium, better academy($200m, smell it?). Aaaand a bitter trophy cabinet for the last 8 years.
 
shallyman said:
The ship canal did not create a footballing rivalry, it created animosity between the cities of Liverpool and Manchester (Salford). This resentment regarding jobs was very real at the time and if you watch the attached MSC documentary that was filmed in the 1970's, the Salford dockers have nothing but scorn for the Liverpool dockers. It's a great bit of footage.

Also, the early 70's was 45 years ago. This is not by any stretch a 'modern' rivalry. And it wasn't created by Alex Ferguson, either. It's one thing making statements of fact, as a respected historian, but when you merge these with your own opinions, then this can sometimes come unstuck. Especially when people who were living and breathing in those decades have the gift of recollection.

Fast forward the clip to 4 mins. As a historian you will enjoy it. Very insightful.

Click to expand...


A huge leap of faith that an industrial 'rivalry' translates to a football rivalry. Two things you have assumed here:

That the majority of dockers would be football fans and would support one of either Liverpool or United - I'm sure a fair few would have been Everton or City fans so please explain why this rivalry didn't translate to us or Everton ? Secondly, you make an assumption that Liverpool or rag fans would all give a sh*t about the shipping industry, patently a huge assumption.

I wasn't around in the late sixties or seventies but we very often came out on top in local derbies so to assert that Liverpool other than in recent times were bigger rivals than City to rags is patently untrue. Anyone know ows that rivalry is driven by who you work with, live next to on a day to day basis. That for most City and United fans will be those whom you share the same City, unless you are admitting that most rags don't live in Manchester.

Give up the pretence, everyone knows this supposed firece rivalry witn liverpool was a fergie creation dedigned to undermine City. If this isn't the case I'm sure you can show us how much time you're spending on Rawk ?
 
Blue Mooner said:
A huge leap of faith that an industrial 'rivalry' translates to a football rivalry. Two things you have assumed here:

That the majority of dockers would be football fans and would support one of either Liverpool or United - I'm sure a fair few would have been Everton or City fans so please explain why this rivalry didn't translate to us or Everton ? Secondly, you make an assumption that Liverpool or rag fans would all give a sh*t about the shipping industry, patently a huge assumption.

I wasn't around in the late sixties or seventies but we very often came out on top in local derbies so to assert that Liverpool other than in recent times were bigger rivals than City to rags is patently untrue. Anyone know ows that rivalry is driven by who you work with, live next to on a day to day basis. That for most City and United fans will be those whom you share the same City, unless you are admitting that most rags don't live in Manchester.

Give up the pretence, everyone knows this supposed firece rivalry witn liverpool was a fergie creation dedigned to undermine City. If this isn't the case I'm sure you can show us how much time you're spending on Rawk ?
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United have represented Manchester as the major force in football since the 1960s just as Liverpool fc represented that city. That in itself is no slight on either Everton or City but just a matter of historical truth. The shipping resentment certainly was brought up again and again and added to the antagonism, some Liverpudlians taking it far too seriously.The rivalry with Liverpool has died down in reality since the start of the premier league era but we tens to still give the scousers stick due to our history. Since 2008 the rivalry with City has become obviously more intense now , now that you've got the players to challenge for the title.
 
manimanc said:
Have I stumbled into a history lesson?
We're looking forwards now, let the red bitters keep looking back.
"The past was yours but the future's mine.....You're all out of time..."
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Just like The Likely Lads, all the rags and mourners have to look forward to is the past.
 
Always love the history argument. Words like historical truth, our history, historical fact, historically proven. How come history only goes back as far as you need it to do to prove something ? Keep going and you may find a love in with Liverpool that saved united from relegation.
 
tony marshall said:
United have represented Manchester as the major force in football since the 1960s just as Liverpool fc represented that city. That in itself is no slight on either Everton or City but just a matter of historical truth. The shipping resentment certainly was brought up again and again and added to the antagonism, some Liverpudlians taking it far too seriously.The rivalry with Liverpool has died down in reality since the start of the premier league era but we tens to still give the scousers stick due to our history. Since 2008 the rivalry with City has become obviously more intense now , now that you've got the players to challenge for the title.
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Were you asleep in the 70's & 80's or not born yet?
 
shallyman said:
The ship canal did not create a footballing rivalry, it created animosity between the cities of Liverpool and Manchester (Salford). This resentment regarding jobs was very real at the time and if you watch the attached MSC documentary that was filmed in the 1970's, the Salford dockers have nothing but scorn for the Liverpool dockers. It's a great bit of footage.

Also, the early 70's was 45 years ago. This is not by any stretch a 'modern' rivalry. And it wasn't created by Alex Ferguson, either. It's one thing making statements of fact, as a respected historian, but when you merge these with your own opinions, then this can sometimes come unstuck. Especially when people who were living and breathing in those decades have the gift of recollection.

Fast forward the clip to 4 mins. As a historian you will enjoy it. Very insightful.

Click to expand...


That's an interesting video... yet does not support your view in any way, shape or form! That video shows animosity between Scouse Dockers and the Dockers in Salford. It is absolutely nothing to do with football... especially as a both sets of workers will have been made up of fans of City and United, Liverpool and Everton... in fact I'd hazard a guess at there being more Evertonians working on the docks in Liverpool back then.
So, you have once again proven nothing at all! Throughout the 70's and 80's (era I grew up in) I recall no 'great rivalry', certainly from Liverpool's part. United back then had problems with just about everyone due to you having a large hooligan element, again no significant animosity with Liverpool... moreso with Leeds, and teams like Millwall, Chelsea.
I went to school with friends who were United fans – none of them had a Liverpool obsession.
If you want reference to how United were back then check out Jasper Carrotts sketch about watching Birmingham City at the Swamp, and also Mike Harding's song "Man 'Nited"... both very inciteful to how your club actually were in the late 70's.

Oh, and by-the-way, Gary James may be a blue, but when it comes to documenting footballing history, he states the facts with impartiality – if he tells you how it was, that's how it was... end of story. Your attempts to prove or justify a rivalry that it is clear was created by an alcoholic scotchman in the early 90's is just a tad embarrassing.
 
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ccr said:
Always love the history argument. Words like historical truth, our history, historical fact, historically proven. How come history only goes back as far as you need it to do to prove something ? Keep going and you may find a love in with Liverpool that saved united from relegation.
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lloydie said:
Were you asleep in the 70's & 80's or not born yet?
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Remember the mid 70s only too well, watching Hughes, Dalglish and the unstoppable Stevie Heighway on the wing. 80s too didn't improve.
Liverpool dominant domestically and cruising in Europe too. Then tragically Heysel and later Hillsborough taking us up to Ferguson's era. They were formidable no doubts about that.
But the premier league era has all about United. Firstly overtaking Liverpool then repressing the Arsenal challenge. Pizzagate and Keane and Viera squaring up.
Abramovic and the not so special one was some rivalry too. Drogba did our heads in at times. Still fairplay we soon saw to the upstarts. Now with yourselves on top (if only by the two points) interesting times ahead indeed. Will United be up for the challenge. I wouldnt bet against us.
 
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