United Thread 2015/16

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No. They've never said and their accounts are private. But a pound to a penny they borrowed it in some form as I'm pretty sure they didn't have the something like £700m it took to repay them lying around in cash. And if they did borrow that amount, they quite probably used the shares to secure that borrowing. Hence my theory (and I'm not claiming it's anything else) that the value of the club if sold might not even be enough to repay all the debts secured on the shares they'd be selling.
Thanks. So, leaving aside the possibility that someone like Rupert Murdoch could have a stake in this shower of shit (and therefore leaving aside any conflict of interest), the official debt of this lot (tied as it is to the Glazer's personal debt) could be 100s of millions more than declared, if the Glazers hang on to them, so to speak?
 
No. They've never said and their accounts are private. But a pound to a penny they borrowed it in some form as I'm pretty sure they didn't have the something like £700m it took to repay them lying around in cash. And if they did borrow that amount, they quite probably used the shares to secure that borrowing. Hence my theory (and I'm not claiming it's anything else) that the value of the club if sold might not even be enough to repay all the debts secured on the shares they'd be selling.
I hope you're right. It sounds like a dream scenario from our point of view. They won't sell because they can't get enough to repay their debts, so they keep leaching money out of it to service their debt while the debt increases because the American business is making a loss and the whole vicious cycle goes round and round till it goes bump.
I'll say it again, I hope you're right.
 
Thanks. So, leaving aside the possibility that someone like Rupert Murdoch could have a stake in this shower of shit (and therefore leaving aside any conflict of interest), the official debt of this lot (tied as it is to the Glazer's personal debt) could be 100s of millions more than declared, if the Glazers hang on to them, so to speak?
That's right. There's United's gross debt of around £450m and we can see that as it's part of the published statements that a quoted company has to make. But there's also the holding company in the Cayman Islands whose accounts we don't have access to. They certainly used their shares in United to secure the PIK loans so it's a fair bet they used the same assets to secure whatever replaced those. They are supposed to have put about £250m cash into the original purchase but even that was probably borrowed against the malls.
 
That's right. There's United's gross debt of around £450m and we can see that as it's part of the published statements that a quoted company has to make. But there's also the holding company in the Cayman Islands whose accounts we don't have access to. They certainly used their shares in United to secure the PIK loans so it's a fair bet they used the same assets to secure whatever replaced those. They are supposed to have put about £250m cash into the original purchase but even that was probably borrowed against the malls.
Thanks, mate. I'll sleep well tonight.
 
I hope you're right. It sounds like a dream scenario from our point of view. They won't sell because they can't get enough to repay their debts, so they keep leaching money out of it to service their debt while the debt increases because the American business is making a loss and the whole vicious cycle goes round and round till it goes bump.
I'll say it again, I hope you're right.
And the point I was making was that, if they have used their shares to provide security against large borrowings that we don't know about, the value of the security will obviously be determined by the share price. And if the banks deem that there is insufficient security due to the falling price, they'll want more or they'll presumably call in the loans. As an example, if a bank lends someone £1m and demands 120% security, the borrower might put up 1m shares valued at £1.20 each. If those shares dip to £1 each, there's only enough security for £800k, meaning £200k isn't adequately secured. That means either more security is needed or all or part of the loan may be called in.

So if they don't get into the CL again, that costs them probably something like £70m or more from loss of prize money, sponsorship and ticket income. That's why they splashed out last time, as they really couldn't afford to be out of the CL for too long, but I'm not convinced they've got the readies, meaning going into more debt or selling players. Missing out for two consecutive seasons could be very, very painful for them in all sorts of ways.
 
That's right. There's United's gross debt of around £450m and we can see that as it's part of the published statements that a quoted company has to make. But there's also the holding company in the Cayman Islands whose accounts we don't have access to. They certainly used their shares in United to secure the PIK loans so it's a fair bet they used the same assets to secure whatever replaced those. They are supposed to have put about £250m cash into the original purchase but even that was probably borrowed against the malls.


Isn't this getting into the same territory as Robert Maxwell now?
 
And the point I was making was that, if they have used their shares to provide security against large borrowings that we don't know about, the value of the security will obviously be determined by the share price. And if the banks deem that there is insufficient security due to the falling price, they'll want more or they'll presumably call in the loans. As an example, if a bank lends someone £1m and demands 120% security, the borrower might put up 1m shares valued at £1.20 each. If those shares dip to £1 each, there's only enough security for £800k, meaning £200k isn't adequately secured. That means either more security is needed or all or part of the loan may be called in.

So if they don't get into the CL again, that costs them probably something like £70m or more from loss of prize money, sponsorship and ticket income. That's why they splashed out last time, as they really couldn't afford to be out of the CL for too long, but I'm not convinced they've got the readies, meaning going into more debt or selling players. Missing out for two consecutive seasons could be very, very painful for them in all sorts of ways.

Doesn't the US Stock Market call for transparency on businesses? How can they trade shares on a business that has secret accounts in The Cayman Islands? Also, how does that pass FFP rules?
 
Christ, the BBC are at it again today:

Rule the world...

Sunderland v Man Utd (12:45 GMT)

Posted at10:11
102b7f9a-3d1e-4e0d-91a6-e99ece33c36f.jpg

.
Six hundred and fifty nine million fans, 116 million social media followers. More than £1bn from sponsors. Twenty league titles. Three European Cups. And from next season, they will get a share of the 71% rise in domestic broadcast revenue, making them the richest club in the world.

We ask why the Manchester United brand continues to dominate globally, despite a slide in performance on the pitch since Sir Alex Ferguson's managerial exit in 2013.

This is a great read for all football fans.
 
It's the same as their love-in with the Tories. They are the propaganda machine for The Establishment, nothing more, nothing less.
The BBC is part of the establishment, rather than a mere mouthpiece for it, although its nauseatingly obsequious coverage of the Royal Family bears testament to the fact it performs both roles with great avidity. I disagree about its output being tendentiously pro-Tory, however. Most of its senior management are members of the metropolitan bourgeoisie who harbour centre-left leanings. 'The Establishment' in this country is a little more layered than you seem to be suggesting.
 
I was under the impression that the PIK was paid off by way of a loan at a reduced interest rate than originally agreed. I could be wrong though.

As I've said before, the BBC is the worst of the lot. The bloke who heads BBC sport is a rag and it shows.
At least with sky, if you don't like their bias, you can walk away. It's one commercial company trumpeting another. With the BBC, there's no option to withdraw.
 
All this is going on because the "mighty" rags are being eclipsed and don't like it. The day that any team / club has a higher merit based on "global reach" or the speculated number of "fans"worldwide or their turnover is the day that sport dies. All those "measures" follow in the wake of on pitch success and so what we are seeing at the moment are the ripples from prior successes under GPC.

Continued under performance will see those figures diminish and they will probably move on to claiming the team with the best playing surface or the brightest floodlights becoming the new test of how to be the best. Whether their PR machine can maintain the current levels of media interest is debatable. It may be the rags will be like some sort of faded movie star and the media interest begins to focus in on botched plastic surgeries, dalliances with unsuitable lovers and embarrassing public failures as the newsworthy comments.
 
bt sport are at it again, its like uniteds pr deptment
You can understand that Sky & BT would be rag friendly as they're commercial organisations relying on subscription and advertising revenue who presumably know their audience. But why have the BBC got their collective head so far up the rags' arse that the dentist has to push it to one side to do a filling?
 
The BBC is part of the establishment, rather than a mere mouthpiece for it, although its nauseatingly obsequious coverage of the Royal Family bears testament to the fact it performs both roles with great avidity. I disagree about its output being tendentiously pro-Tory, however. Most of its senior management are members of the metropolitan bourgeoisie who harbour centre-left leanings. 'The Establishment' in this country is a little more layered than you seem to be suggesting.

I agree, "the establishment" is more nuanced, but they have an acute sense of the zeitgeist and a keen instinct for survival. They see the zeitgeist as right wing and their continued survival requires them to suck Tory dick and kowtow to the big beasts like Utd.

As far as the Royal Family is concerned, the unwashed masses could be storming Buckingham Palace and the BBC would continue covering The Duchess of Cambridge's new frock.
 
The 5 Live commentary of Utd v Sunderland on now is sick enducing. The two commentators are soooooo far up Martial's ass it's embarrassing. They just spent 5 mins going on about how good he was during the first half.
 
The 5 Live commentary of Utd v Sunderland on now is sick enducing. The two commentators are soooooo far up Martial's ass it's embarrassing. They just spent 5 mins going on about how good he was during the first half.
I refuse to listen to BBC commentary of them.. The amount of times they say 'Manchester United' just winds me up.
 
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