SebastianBlue
President, International Julian Alvarez Fan Club
- Joined
- 25 Jul 2009
- Messages
- 57,736
Do you believe that collective punishment is lawful? Or the killing of non-combatant children? Or the purposeful destruction of civilian infrastructure? Or forced mass displacement and confiscation of property in violation of international law and signed treaties? Or extrajudicial execution? Or purposefully bringing about famine conditions on a population? Or the extermination of a people? Or an apartheid system within a nation?
These are all things the current far-right Israeli regime have either been verified to have done or have been credibly accused of doing.
These are the acts—and the circumstances—being protested around the US and the world at present, including by many of the students you denounce as “snowflakes”, despite them facing very real consequences for doing so, including not only police brutality and arrest, but police-sanctioned violence against them, as was the case at UCLA (none of those that violently attacked the encampant as the police looked on were arrested to date).
I think were our ideological difference may originate is in how we view Palestinians (though, perhaps I have misread your posts in this regard, so please correct me if I have).
I do not view all Palestinians—especially children, which comprise nearly half of the population of Gaza—as “Hamas supporters”. So I don’t have to ask if Palestinians are worth more than Israelis. To me, each human has intrinsically the same value. Palestinians aren’t worth more than Israeli hostages, and the Israeli hostages aren’t worth more than Palestinians.
If you take this humanistic stance, the way in which the “war to on Hamas” has been carried becomes more and more egregiously wrong by the day.
Hamas, PIJ, and other aligned groups murdered ~1,200 Israelis in the horrific 7 October attacks. It was barbaric—the cruelty and disregard for human life should not be understated. The fact they were largely able to carry out the attacks because of Netanyahu (and, to a lesser extent, his current far-regime) should also not be ignored.
In response, to date, that far-right Israeli regime has killed nearly 40,000 Palestinians and injured nearly 80,000, with most of them being women and children. That is 100x as many as were killed in the 7 October terrorist attacks.
It has destroyed the majority of the housing and infrastructure in Gaza and has made almost all of the territory unsuitable for long term habitation. It has displaced over a million Palestinians and has brought about famine conditions. It has accelerated its programme of illegal displacement, property confiscation, and settlement in the West Bank, as well as illegal expansion of presence in Jerusalem. Many of the top ministers in the far-right regime have called for the complete destruction of Gaza and of the Palestinians as a people. These ministers are the ones administering the “war” and backing/supporting settler paramilitary groups currently terrorising (and killing) Palestinians in the West Bank.
Most current anti-genocide, anti-apartheid protestors that are calling for a permanent ceasefire and open humanitarian aid to Gaza (to prevent even more death), as well as the ouster of Netanyahu and his far-right government (along with investigation and prosecution for genocide) to allow for negaotiations for a permanent two-state solution are aware of all of this.
They are protesting all of these illegal acts and immoral conditions. They are calling out the response from the far-right Israeli regime as wildly disproportional, malicious, and, ultimately, genocidal.
The tactics of the most protestors are similar to those used by students across the decades to advocate for Civil Rights (and against a horrifically immoral, illegal, and—at times—genocidal apartheid system), protest the Vietnam war (a horrifically immoral, illegal, and genocidal campaign), apartheid in South Africa (a horrifically immoral, illegal, and—at times—genocidal regime), the Iraq war (a immoral, illegal, and, ultimately, disastrous campaign), and most recently, still persisten, pervasive, and systematic racism, especially in the context of policing in America (itself immoral and illegal).
Protest is inherently disruptive and provocative. You can’t say you are in favour of protest but say only in cases when it neither disrupts nor provokes.
We both agree violence has absolutely no place in protest—either by protestors, counterprotestors, police, or other participants. And there are elements within the current protests that are abhorrent for their antisemitic, Islamophobic, or simply unacceptably threatening behaviour and deserve to be denounced and dealt with via due process and societal consequence. That is unfortunately the case with every protest movement—so agitators and malicious actors will look to co-opt for their own purposes. And some participants will just be morons that reflect poorly on the majority of the movement.
But peaceful gatherings, occupations, sit-ins, and other non-violent means, even in the case of illegal acts—opposing what any reasonable observer would class as acts and situations that are demonstrably wrong—as long as they do not physically harm others, have been the only means of protest that have ever actually affected change.
The nature and circumstances of what you have described as acceptable protest has never worked to achieve change in the history of humankind. Which is exactly why established powers continue to assert it is the only acceptable form of protest: it allows them to placate and control without fear of the protests actually doing anything.
To call people willing to undertake peaceful but disruptive protest, and face personal consequences—and, unfortunately, physical and psychological harm—for having done so “snowflakes”, especially on an internet forum, is quite astounding to me.
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