US Politics Thread

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

They can’t say the signs weren’t there for them, irrespective of the efficacy of the Democrat’s campaign.

Huge signs with neon arrows and flashing lights, but most of them 'chose' to ignore them just to that they could 'own' the Dem's.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

Huge signs with neon arrows and flashing lights, but most of them 'chose' to ignore them just to that they could 'own' the Dem's.

Disagree entirely. It's not "own the libs" - it's "echo chamber." RE my previous post.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

To be fair it will probably come a news to Trump, once he gets it he might change his mind.

I'm not sure he will. He wants to screw things up.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

"Own the libs" versus "Echo chamber" as a primary root cause (though I think it's the economy as it pertains to individuals trying to buy gas or a loaf of bread which is much more expensive now - rather than the price of stocks or American productivity or the jobs market or whatever other nebulus factor which the individual simply trying to buy groceries could care less about - is the number 1 cause) for why Trump won the election and why the distinction is important

"Own the libs" has been advanced by some as the primary reason motivating votes for Trump. I think that this is off the mark as I've explained in my previous post.

"Echo chamber" is, instead, the correct explanation for the majority of Trump votes.

Why is this distinction important?

For several reasons:
1) Because it is true;

2) If it is false, and there are in fact those who are going to vote "own the libs" no matter what - then this leads to the question - why is this so?

Genetics? If genetics, then you believe that 1/2 the people born in the USA are crazy, irrational, and are going to hate group X - whatever that might be.

Upbringing? If upbringing is the cause, then you're making the case for "Echo chamber." In other words, most people aren't innately evil, or irrational, or stupid at birth - instead it's upbringing, social circles, news sources, which explain what they believe - even if these beliefs are illogical, immoral, and disadvantageous to the believer.

People are social creatures - seeking out others for friendship. They're hard-wired to "fit in" - adopting the viewpoints of their friends as a consequence.

3) Because, as explained in 2 above, the "own the libs" explanation as a root cause is false and yet, if you believe that it's true, you give up on the possibility - however difficult - of convincing those with opposing views to change their mind;

4) Because, given 3 above, the question becomes, how tenuous is the Right viewpoint? What might be most effective in appealing to the far Right voter? Or indeed the minority "swing voter"? A campaign strategy designed to change minds while retaining the principals of the Left - is badly needed.

5) Because given all of the above - the mindset that Republicans hate Democrats and want to "own the libs" and that's that - misses out on actual root cause issues, which if addressed in a Democrat platform - might actually swing enough votes to make all the difference. All - or most Republicans are - "own the libs" is an "I give up" - they're stupid, unreachable, morally bankrupt, and there's nothing we can do about it, defeatist mentality. Might as well, not fucking vote.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Disagree entirely. It's not "own the libs" - it's "echo chamber." RE my previous post.

I work with a number of Republican voters, and they are typical of the same kind of voters in the UK who would vote for a pig if it had the right colour lipstick on just because it wasn't the other party.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

I work with a number of Republican voters, and they are typical of the same kind of voters in the UK who would vote for a pig if it had the right colour lipstick on just because it wasn't the other party.

Exactly.

But why do they vote for red-lipped pigs? - it's echo chamber - not some sort of inherent evilness, or stupidity, or "own Labour" (I'm guessing that "own Labour" is the correct analogue of the USA's "own the libs") that's at root cause.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

5) Because given all of the above - the mindset that Republicans hate Democrats and want to "own the libs" and that's that - misses out on actual root cause issues, which if addressed in a Democrat platform - might actually swing enough votes to make all the difference. All - or most Republicans are - "own the libs" is an "I give up" - they're stupid, unreachable, morally bankrupt, and there's nothing we can do about it, defeatist mentality. Might as well, not fucking vote.

Yes. It's an "I give up." The only thing that reaches Trump supporters will be their pocketbook. But when things get dicey -- as they inevitably will -- then the "echo chamber" you describe will go into overdrive about how this is the fault of the Dems, immigrants, trans people, the MSM etc. etc. etc. etc. It won't be the GOP's fault, nor Trump's -- ever. And it doesn't matter who the GOP runs. The willingness to overlook any and all character issues -- to support a criminal -- demonstrated now will forever taint American politics. Yet I guarantee the "Biden crime family", "Hillary's emails", "Hunter's laptop", "Harris sleeping her way to the top" will continue to be brought up over and over by the MAGA as reasons Democratic ideas will never ever matter because of their "character."

So it doesn't even need to be own the libs. They've been owned. This is how propaganda works. And there's only one way it ends. Just a matter of when.

Laughable to think that Dax, e.g., will ever vote for a Democrat again in his life.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

Yes. It's an "I give up." The only thing that reaches Trump supporters will be their pocketbook. But then the "echo chamber" you describe will go into overdrive about how this is the fault of the Dems, immigrants, trans people, the MSM etc. etc. etc. etc. It won't be the GOP's fault, nor Trump's -- ever. And it doesn't matter who the GOP runs. The willingness to overlook any and all character issues -- to support a criminal -- demonstrated now will forever taint American politics. Yet I guarantee the "Biden crime family", Hillary's emails", "Hunter's laptop", "Harris sleeping her way to the top" will continue to be brought up over and over by the MAGA as reasons Democratic ideas will never ever matter because of their "character."

So it doesn't even need to be own the libs. They've been owned. This is how propaganda works. And there's only one way it ends. Just a matter of when.

Might as well then look into Canadian citizenship.

For me, the status quo isn't great at all - but it's not irrecoverable. Step one is to face facts; step two is to design a strategy to persuade those on the Right.

At the same time, a crashing economy will spell doom for MAGA no matter what - IMO - such is the force of that factor. On the flip side, if the economy - meaning the price of gas and that of a loaf of bread and not the stock market, or job index or whatever - if the economy in these terms is great - there's likely very little we can do to change vote outcomes.

I think that the sweet spot is if the economy is so-so in two/four/six years. In that case, it's vital to persuade the persuadable. The "I give up there's nothing we can do" mentality ceeds this possibility to the Right.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

Laughable to think that Dax, e.g., will ever vote for a Democrat again in his life.

Some advice from a friend: put Dax on ignore :-)

Think of it as ending your account on X - the outcome is exactly the same - no batshit crazy posts to trouble you - and I agree - Dax is fucking unreachable. He (or she) isn't among the persuadable.

As a participant in this forum Dax is already flooded with anti-echo chamber views - and yet doesn't budge an inch. For such, let them be - appeal instead to those who might actually change their minds. It's very, very close - change a few percent here or there and it becomes a Blue Wave.

If you argue with the Daxes of the world, you'll likely become more and more frustrated - and might even give up on the possibility of change. At which point - I daresay - Dax has "owned a lib."

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

Some advice from a friend: put Dax on ignore :-)

Think of it as ending your account on X - the outcome is exactly the same - no batshit crazy posts to trouble you - and I agree - Dax is fucking unreachable. He (or she) isn't among the persuadable that I base my arguments on. As a participant in this forum Dax is already flooded with anti-echo chamber views - and yet doesn't budge an inch. For such, let them be - appeal instead to those who might actually change their minds. It's very, very close - change a few percent here or there and it becomes a Blue Wave.

Dax IS the right! He's not an outlier, mate. There are way, way, way more Daxes than there are "persuadable" Trump supporters. As he continues to suggest.