US Politics Thread

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FogBlueInSanFran said:
Even more own pick-up trucks.

I don’t think of Trump’s voters’ selection of him as a striving of his support base for the nation to be better off — I look at it as a pool of people who aren’t where they perceive others are financially, believe a certain subset of people/politicians are exclusively to blame (not themselves), and see Trump as their angel of retribution who won’t necessarily restore their own glory, but will make the perpetrators of his voters’ unhappiness suffer.

Socially, they’ve been brought up in and grounded themselves in a socio-religious construct which the left has deemed morally-wanting — anti-DEI, anti-immigrant, anti-abortion rights, anti-LGTBQ wide-scale rights and acceptance. It’s okay to be black, foreign, childless and gay as long as they know you personally and you’ve been deemed acceptable company — that you “fit in.” But not as a class — only individuals. As such, they don’t just feel looked down upon, but perceive that they’ve been told their beliefs are “wrong” morally. That raises hackles.

It doesn’t help the rest of us that, despite the vast majority of Trump supporters like being conservative but not extreme, that the vast majority of the GOP — Trump included — has often hemmed and hawed about the support of extremists for fear of offending them. Imagine not wanting to offend the KKK.

Anyhow, even those who @Username Required mentioned — his friends and neighbors — focus on these aspects, and they don’t sound anything like poor or destitute or bigoted or desperately yearning for a better life. Their primary motivations are fear-based, as he noted. And it’s 100% addition by subtraction — a zero sum game. Nearly every plank of the GOP’s platform has “others suffering” as a component. Read it. I did.
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Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure where the GOP platform is to read. Is there a "manifesto" as such? I can't imagine how most of what Trump says could easily be written as a cogent policy!

Have I understood the bit about what raises hackles? That people who criticise the morality of abortion, being gay, or of immigration, or of equality legislation (equality at the heart of the constitution), have their hackles raised by liberals advocating more liberal morality?

What I can't get my head round is that the aspirational mindset - anyone can by merit have a good and prosperous life - has a corollary, that it must be my fault if I'm not prosperous. Teleevangelists preaching a prosperity gospel (faith rewarded with prosperity) compound that (and with the implication that "others suffering" is their fault).
 
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Vic said:
What indictment?

Perhaps the headlines at the "poor" end of the spectrum are because about 0.5% of Americans own a Tesla. I assume you're not saying that, when everyone says Trump won because of the cost of living, people vote for Trump because they hope to drive a Tesla.
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Anybody who voted for Trump because of the cost of living is too stupid to have a vote, but then that’s democracy, eh?!

As for Tesla’s, like most big ticket items, they are an aspirational purchase for some, much like a second home, etc., that many people attempt to achieve. They are broad indicators not specific items.
 
Vic said:
Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure where the GOP platform is to read. Is there a "manifesto" as such? I can't imagine how most of what Trump says could easily be written as a cogent policy!
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This is the GOP platform/plan - but yeah, Trump knows nothing about it.
www.project2025.org

Mandate for Leadership | A Product of The Heritage Foundation

This was a project of more than 100 organizations to prepare for a new conservative administration through policy, training, and personnel.
www.project2025.org www.project2025.org
 
BlueHammer85 said:
Sure they did in plenty and it would make zero difference- half of Americans want to ‘own the libs’ and make America Great Again. There was no getting through.
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Precisely this. A large proportion of Republican voters are those that wouldn't vote Lib if their lives depended on it, and ended up in a position of voting for policies that will actually screw themselves over as a result. All the information was out there, but they simply ignored it. I suspect more than a few of them would have stayed home if they'd realised what a second Trump term would actually mean for them.
 
Trevor Morley's Tache said:
Precisely this. A large proportion of Republican voters are those that wouldn't vote Lib if their lives depended on it, and ended up in a position of voting for policies that will actually screw themselves over as a result. All the information was out there, but they simply ignored it. I suspect more than a few of them would have stayed home if they'd realised what a second Trump term would actually mean for them.
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They can’t say the signs weren’t there for them, irrespective of the efficacy of the Democrat’s campaign.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
Sure they did in plenty and it would make zero difference- half of Americans want to ‘own the libs’ and make America Great Again. There was no getting through.
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It's a bit more nuanced than this, IMO.

People seek out and befriend those with similar beliefs. And those that validate their preconceived conceptions and ideology are very attractive. Moreover, news sites - whether traditional or Internet social media - that cater to one's own views are going to be appealing. Those news sites with contradictory viewpoints are met with dislike and incredulity. There's a term for this - echo chamber.

And if your echo chamber is full of dishonest brokers - willing to lie and defame the other side - well, that's what you're going to end up believing.

"Own the libs" as a primary motivator for Trump voters is exaggerated. Yes, most Republicans have a distrust of Democrats, and some Republicans have this to the extent that it's a moral - or indeed existential - imperative to vote Republican no matter what. But most Republicans are simply voting for the guy who mostly supports their viewpoint, backed up by plenty of reinforcing daily indoctrination courtesy of their echo chamber.

In short - "own the libs" is certainly a motivator and explains why some Republicans vote the way they do.

But "echo chamber" - is the real culprit.
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To wit...

Pete Buttigieg has met with some success appearing of Fox News and even more speaking in public in very Republican forums.

The average Republican isn't stupid, or morally bankrupt, or driven by the sole desire to "own the libs" - the average Republican is just like you, or me, except - likely - brought up in a Republican household, with Republican friends and relatives - and who gets his or her news exclusively from Republican outlets.
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The real villain in the "own the libs" mindset are those on the Right who recognized that demonizing the Left is a winning political strategy.

Newt Gingrich is a poster child for this sort of person as is Rush Limbaugh and Rupert Murdoch.

Each of these - and similar such - are willing to lie, lie, lie, and demonize Democrats - to the extent that "own the libs" is actually a powerful - but I think very much secondary to "echo chamber" - explanation for why Republicans vote the way they do, in spite of fact that their votes may, in fact, be worse for them - or sometimes far worse - than the unthinkable - voting for a Democrat.
 
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"Own the libs" versus "Echo chamber" as a primary root cause (though I think it's the economy as it pertains to individuals trying to buy gas or a loaf of bread which is much more expensive now - rather than the price of stocks or American productivity or the jobs market or whatever other nebulus factor which the individual simply trying to buy groceries could care less about - is the number 1 cause) for why Trump won the election and why the distinction is important

"Own the libs" has been advanced by some as the primary reason motivating votes for Trump. I think that this is off the mark as I've explained in my previous post.

"Echo chamber" is, instead, the correct explanation for the majority of Trump votes.

Why is this distinction important?

For several reasons:
1) Because it is true;

2) If it is false, and there are in fact those who are going to vote "own the libs" no matter what - then this leads to the question - why is this so?

Genetics? If genetics, then you believe that 1/2 the people born in the USA are crazy, irrational, and are going to hate group X - whatever that might be.

Upbringing? If upbringing is the cause, then you're making the case for "Echo chamber." In other words, most people aren't innately evil, or irrational, or stupid at birth - instead it's upbringing, social circles, news sources, which explain what they believe - even if these beliefs are illogical, immoral, and disadvantageous to the believer.

People are social creatures - seeking out others for friendship. They're hard-wired to "fit in" - adopting the viewpoints of their friends as a consequence.

3) Because, as explained in 2 above, the "own the libs" explanation as a root cause is false and yet, if you believe that it's true, you give up on the possibility - however difficult - of convincing those with opposing views to change their mind;

4) Because, given 3 above, the question becomes, how tenuous is the Right viewpoint? What might be most effective in appealing to the far Right voter? Or indeed the minority "swing voter"? A campaign strategy designed to change minds while retaining the principals of the Left - is badly needed.

5) Because given all of the above - the mindset that Republicans hate Democrats and want to "own the libs" and that's that - misses out on actual root cause issues, which if addressed in a Democrat platform - might actually swing enough votes to make all the difference. All - or most Republicans are - "own the libs" is an "I give up" - they're stupid, unreachable, morally bankrupt, and there's nothing we can do about it, defeatist mentality. Might as well, not fucking vote.
 
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Trevor Morley's Tache said:
I work with a number of Republican voters, and they are typical of the same kind of voters in the UK who would vote for a pig if it had the right colour lipstick on just because it wasn't the other party.
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Exactly.

But why do they vote for red-lipped pigs? - it's echo chamber - not some sort of inherent evilness, or stupidity, or "own Labour" (I'm guessing that "own Labour" is the correct analogue of the USA's "own the libs") that's at root cause.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
5) Because given all of the above - the mindset that Republicans hate Democrats and want to "own the libs" and that's that - misses out on actual root cause issues, which if addressed in a Democrat platform - might actually swing enough votes to make all the difference. All - or most Republicans are - "own the libs" is an "I give up" - they're stupid, unreachable, morally bankrupt, and there's nothing we can do about it, defeatist mentality. Might as well, not fucking vote.
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Yes. It's an "I give up." The only thing that reaches Trump supporters will be their pocketbook. But when things get dicey -- as they inevitably will -- then the "echo chamber" you describe will go into overdrive about how this is the fault of the Dems, immigrants, trans people, the MSM etc. etc. etc. etc. It won't be the GOP's fault, nor Trump's -- ever. And it doesn't matter who the GOP runs. The willingness to overlook any and all character issues -- to support a criminal -- demonstrated now will forever taint American politics. Yet I guarantee the "Biden crime family", "Hillary's emails", "Hunter's laptop", "Harris sleeping her way to the top" will continue to be brought up over and over by the MAGA as reasons Democratic ideas will never ever matter because of their "character."

So it doesn't even need to be own the libs. They've been owned. This is how propaganda works. And there's only one way it ends. Just a matter of when.

Laughable to think that Dax, e.g., will ever vote for a Democrat again in his life.
 
FogBlueInSanFran said:
Yes. It's an "I give up." The only thing that reaches Trump supporters will be their pocketbook. But then the "echo chamber" you describe will go into overdrive about how this is the fault of the Dems, immigrants, trans people, the MSM etc. etc. etc. etc. It won't be the GOP's fault, nor Trump's -- ever. And it doesn't matter who the GOP runs. The willingness to overlook any and all character issues -- to support a criminal -- demonstrated now will forever taint American politics. Yet I guarantee the "Biden crime family", Hillary's emails", "Hunter's laptop", "Harris sleeping her way to the top" will continue to be brought up over and over by the MAGA as reasons Democratic ideas will never ever matter because of their "character."

So it doesn't even need to be own the libs. They've been owned. This is how propaganda works. And there's only one way it ends. Just a matter of when.
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Might as well then look into Canadian citizenship.

For me, the status quo isn't great at all - but it's not irrecoverable. Step one is to face facts; step two is to design a strategy to persuade those on the Right.

At the same time, a crashing economy will spell doom for MAGA no matter what - IMO - such is the force of that factor. On the flip side, if the economy - meaning the price of gas and that of a loaf of bread and not the stock market, or job index or whatever - if the economy in these terms is great - there's likely very little we can do to change vote outcomes.

I think that the sweet spot is if the economy is so-so in two/four/six years. In that case, it's vital to persuade the persuadable. The "I give up there's nothing we can do" mentality ceeds this possibility to the Right.
 
FogBlueInSanFran said:
Laughable to think that Dax, e.g., will ever vote for a Democrat again in his life.
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Some advice from a friend: put Dax on ignore :-)

Think of it as ending your account on X - the outcome is exactly the same - no batshit crazy posts to trouble you - and I agree - Dax is fucking unreachable. He (or she) isn't among the persuadable.

As a participant in this forum Dax is already flooded with anti-echo chamber views - and yet doesn't budge an inch. For such, let them be - appeal instead to those who might actually change their minds. It's very, very close - change a few percent here or there and it becomes a Blue Wave.

If you argue with the Daxes of the world, you'll likely become more and more frustrated - and might even give up on the possibility of change. At which point - I daresay - Dax has "owned a lib."
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
Some advice from a friend: put Dax on ignore :-)

Think of it as ending your account on X - the outcome is exactly the same - no batshit crazy posts to trouble you - and I agree - Dax is fucking unreachable. He (or she) isn't among the persuadable that I base my arguments on. As a participant in this forum Dax is already flooded with anti-echo chamber views - and yet doesn't budge an inch. For such, let them be - appeal instead to those who might actually change their minds. It's very, very close - change a few percent here or there and it becomes a Blue Wave.
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Dax IS the right! He's not an outlier, mate. There are way, way, way more Daxes than there are "persuadable" Trump supporters. As he continues to suggest.
 
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