US Politics Thread

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Because the SYSTEM WORKS ON TRUST.

It absolutely baffles me how the lot of you cannot for the lives of you figure out that rogue actors abuse public trust. EVERYWHERE. In EVERY nation. In ALL forms of government.

You keep blaming the system instead of blaming the ACTORS. Trump and his ilk are the ultimate bad faith actors — far and away the worst the nation has ever seen. They make Nixon and his cronies look like parking scofflaws. They are the exception, not the rule.

Does the system fail if the actors aren’t rogue, if they work in the best interest of the public in perception and reality? No, or it hasn’t done.

It’s more insidious when comes to the SC, granted. But they aren’t gonna live forever either, which means the laws they interpret will have different interpretations under different justices some day. As it ever was.

I understand the frustration. I am frustrated. But you think the problems are structural. Maybe some are but that is NOT the root cause of what has happened here. It is motherfucking rogue actors. And by fixating on the “broken” system you in part absolve them of THEIR responsibility.

Get your heads back in the game, y’all.

Any Constitution where the Head of State has the exclusive and unfettered power to appoint the senior Judiciary is systemically, structurally and fundamentally flawed.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

Any Constitution where the Head of State has the exclusive and unfettered power to appoint the senior Judiciary is systemically, structurally and fundamentally flawed.

But he/she doesn’t. The Senate must APPROVE the appointees. As with many many many Presidential appointees.

And plenty believe several lied in their confirmation hearings about their legal views on Roe v Wade, among other things, and about their past behavio(u)r with women, in Kavanaugh and Thomas’s cases.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

But he/she doesn’t. The Senate must APPROVE the appointees. As with many many many Presidential appointees.

And plenty believe several lied in their confirmation hearings about their legal views on Roe v Wade, among other things, and about their past behavio(u)r with women, in Kavanaugh and Thomas’s cases.

The first part I wasn’t aware of, so apologies.

The second part is surely systemic failure though? If people like that got in?

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

The first part I wasn’t aware of, so apologies.

The second part is surely systemic failure though? If people like that got in?

No. People lie all the time. But you’d hope the character of those selected to be in the SC would be above reproach morally. And that’s where the politicization of the process is a problem. But it’s always been discussed, for decades. It’s not new. Ask conservatives what they thought about Brennan and Marshall. There are very few “neutral” justices. Nearly all have either a strict interpretation or an activist bent. Stevens was probably the last true neutral over his career. Before that it was maybe Potter Stewart who left the bench in 81.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

No. People lie all the time. But you’d hope the character of those selected to be in the SC would be above reproach morally. And that’s where the politicization of the process is a problem. But it’s always been discussed, for decades. It’s not new. Ask conservatives what they thought about Brennan and Marshall. There are very few “neutral” justices. Nearly all have either a strict interpretation or an activist bent. Stevens was probably the last true neutral over his career. Before that it was maybe Potter Stewart who left the bench in 81.

Kavenaugh lied like a cheap Chinese watch at his confirmation hearing.

 

[Uncle Wally One Ball]

Because the SYSTEM WORKS ON TRUST.

It absolutely baffles me how the lot of you cannot for the lives of you figure out that rogue actors abuse public trust. EVERYWHERE. In EVERY nation. In ALL forms of government.

You keep blaming the system instead of blaming the ACTORS. Trump and his ilk are the ultimate bad faith actors — far and away the worst the nation has ever seen. They make Nixon and his cronies look like parking scofflaws. They are the exception, not the rule.

Does the system fail if the actors aren’t rogue, if they work in the best interest of the public in perception and reality? No, or it hasn’t done.

It’s more insidious when comes to the SC, granted. But they aren’t gonna live forever either, which means the laws they interpret will have different interpretations under different justices some day. As it ever was.

I understand the frustration. I am frustrated. But you think the problems are structural. Maybe some are but that is NOT the root cause of what has happened here. It is motherfucking rogue actors. And by fixating on the “broken” system you in part absolve them of THEIR responsibility.

Get your heads back in the game, y’all.

The actors are enabled by the 'SYSTEM'. If it didnt work the way it did there wouldnt be this push to appoint lackey loons like Kavanaugh and the lady with the Ryan Giggs eyes in order to skew the court to suit those who appoint them. If the President wasnt able to skew the court for a generation there wouldnt such a fuss about electing lunatics who are hell bent on subversion, so those actors exist because of it. Look at Trump leaning on members of the judiciary across the states that he thinks owe him something. They do owe something, obviously.

Also, it doesnt happen in every nation.

It does happen over there, systemically, and with regularity.

 

[Uncle Wally One Ball]

Maybe, a close run thing. I always felt Gore gave in too easily. You can’t beat a hanging chad to see how ridiculous the law sometimes is.

I was interested to read this the other day.
“It was a stolen election. Based on the actual votes, Al Gore should have won going away, except for the discarding of ballots cast by Black voters who were 95% for Gore. I proved this in my report to the United States Commission on Civil Rights. One out of every nine to 10 ballots cast by a Black voter was thrown out, as opposed to one out of 50 cast by a white voter.
Most of those were not so-called hanging chads. They were over-votes because Black people were told punch in Gore and then write in Gore, just to be sure, and those ballots were all discarded. Political scientists have since looked at the election and proved I was right. Al Gore, based on the intent of the voters, should have won by tens of thousands of votes.”

Taken from an interview with Allan Lichtman in the Grauniad

As I recall it Gore decided that the Republican party were not going to give over no matter what and for the sake of continuance of effective government and to allow for a transition he fell on his sword for the greater good. Another example of sinister actors misusing the system that enabled them for their ends. Cheney, Jim Baker, old Nixonians, Reagan era old figures all gathered as a war cabinet to push that through

‘A lot would have to go wrong for Biden to lose’: can Allan Lichtman predict the 2024 election?

The professor on his famous 13 ‘keys’ to the White House, a method for predicting election results that’s been right nine times out of 10

www.theguardian.com

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

The actors are enabled by the 'SYSTEM'. If it didnt work the way it did there wouldnt be this push to appoint lackey loons like Kavanaugh and the lady with the Ryan Giggs eyes in order to skew the court to suit those who appoint them. If the President wasnt able to skew the court for a generation there wouldnt such a fuss about electing lunatics who are hell bent on subversion, so those actors exist because of it. Look at Trump leaning on members of the judiciary across the states that he thinks owe him something. They do owe something, obviously.

Also, it doesnt happen in every nation.

It does happen over there, systemically, and with regularity.

Oh. So THAT’S why Biden’s acting the same as Trump. THAT’s why Clinton, Obama, both Bushes and every other president has tried a coup, claimed an election was stolen, packed the court with lunatic ideologues, endorsed fascism, broke conflict of interest laws and presided over a House majority that literally cannot function as it operates a circular firing squad. It’s all because of the SYSTEM!! I get it now! Thanks.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

Maybe, a close run thing. I always felt Gore gave in too easily. You can’t beat a hanging chad to see how ridiculous the law sometimes is.

Gore gave in too easily because the nation moving forward was more important to him than fighting the electoral battle in the courts forever.

Which is kind of my entire point about the importance of electing moral leaders whose focus is public service, but I’m being told apparently that America alone is the only nation on earth without a fail-safe system to prevent bad actors, so . . . .

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

I was interested to read this the other day.
“It was a stolen election. Based on the actual votes, Al Gore should have won going away, except for the discarding of ballots cast by Black voters who were 95% for Gore. I proved this in my report to the United States Commission on Civil Rights. One out of every nine to 10 ballots cast by a Black voter was thrown out, as opposed to one out of 50 cast by a white voter.
Most of those were not so-called hanging chads. They were over-votes because Black people were told punch in Gore and then write in Gore, just to be sure, and those ballots were all discarded. Political scientists have since looked at the election and proved I was right. Al Gore, based on the intent of the voters, should have won by tens of thousands of votes.”

Taken from an interview with Allan Lichtman in the Grauniad

As I recall it Gore decided that the Republican party were not going to give over no matter what and for the sake of continuance of effective government and to allow for a transition he fell on his sword for the greater good. Another example of sinister actors misusing the system that enabled them for their ends. Cheney, Jim Baker, old Nixonians, Reagan era old figures all gathered as a war cabinet to push that through

‘A lot would have to go wrong for Biden to lose’: can Allan Lichtman predict the 2024 election?

The professor on his famous 13 ‘keys’ to the White House, a method for predicting election results that’s been right nine times out of 10

www.theguardian.com

Somehow the system you decry didn’t prevent Gore from making a positive decision for the future of the nation. Clearly he should have fought it tooth and nail and should still be. Amazing how it’s actually the people within the system and not the system that’s really the issue.

 

[Uncle Wally One Ball]

Somehow the system you decry didn’t prevent Gore from making a positive decision for the future of the nation. Clearly he should have fought it tooth and nail and should still be. Amazing how it’s actually the people within the system and not the system that’s really the issue.

He couldnt beat it could he?

 

[Uncle Wally One Ball]

Gore gave in too easily because the nation moving forward was more important to him than fighting the electoral battle in the courts forever.

Which is kind of my entire point about the importance of electing moral leaders whose focus is public service, but I’m being told apparently that America alone is the only nation on earth without a fail-safe system to prevent bad actors, so . . . .

It isnt the only nation on earth that without a fail safe is it? It is however a beacon of a fantatist example of democracy with a system of checks of balances that are demonstrably abused and that enables these people. I dont think Gore gave in too easily either. I think Gore rose above it

 

[TinFoilHat]

Colin Jost roasting Biden tonight.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Somehow the system you decry didn’t prevent Gore from making a positive decision for the future of the nation. Clearly he should have fought it tooth and nail and should still be. Amazing how it’s actually the people within the system and not the system that’s really the issue.

To be fair, there is a very strong argument that Gore didn’t make a positive decision for the future of the US (or the world) by conceding to Bush and the tactics of the Brooks Brothers rioters, Chaney, Rove, et al. It wasn’t a case of a Trumpian Big Lie—Gore likely actually won the presidency and the increasingly unhinged and out-of-control “neoconservative” movement (which was really the edge of the far-right at that point) ensured the fair and free result was ultimately subverted.

In some ways a not-insignificant amount of what is happening now can be traced back to that decision.

But I agree that the US is certainly not the only western nation with a system struggling to contain and mitigate far-right, fascist actors.

The UK certainly is no poster child for such efforts, so we should be a little circumspect with our criticism.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

To be fair, there is a very strong argument that Gore didn’t make a positive decision for the future of the US (or the world) by conceding to Bush and the tactics of the Brooks Brothers rioters, Chaney, Rove, et al. It wasn’t a case of a Trumpian Big Lie—Gore likely actually won the presidency and the increasingly unhinged and out-of-control “neoconservative” movement (which was really the edge of the far-right at that point) ensured the fair and free result was ultimately subverted.

In some ways a not-insignificant amount of what is happening now can be traced back to that decision.

But I agree that the US is certainly not the only western nation with a system struggling to contain and mitigate far-right, fascist actors.

The UK certainly is no poster child for such efforts, so we should be a little circumspect with our criticism.

You make a good point. But I’d point out that’s also hindsight. What if the US had been effectively leaderless for months on end? What if in that time there’d been an international crisis (as there was not long after)? A ton of awful unknowns were potentially in the mix. Thoughtful public servants must think in terms of contingencies. This was absolutely a worry during the last days of Nixon too.

 

[SebastianBlue]

You make a good point. But I’d point out that’s also hindsight. if the US had been effectively leaderless for months on end? What if in that time there’d been an international crisis (as there was not long after)? Thoughtful public servants must think in terms of contingencies. This was absolutely a worry during the last days of Nixon too.

It is indeed important to consider that.

I would answer that question with a question: would the US (or the world) have been worse off by not having Bush, Chaney, Rove, and others in office during an international crisis whilst the election result was fairly determined rather than strong-armed by those people and their near far-right backers?

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

He couldnt beat it could he?

What was to prevent him from Trumping along with lawsuit after lawsuit, or screaming fraud or fake and undermining confidence in the electoral process?

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

It is indeed important to consider that.

I would answer that question with a question: would the US (or the world) have been worse off by not having Bush, Chaney, Rove, and others in office during an international crisis whilst the election result was fairly determined rather than strong-armed by those people and their near far-right backers?

Hmmm. Maybe. But that is perilously close to an ends-justifies-the-means discussion . . .

Anyhow, I will refocus again by saying that where we are has far more to do with rogue actors than the system’s inherent flaws. It’s the pilot not the plane.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Hmmm. That is perilously close to

I don’t think it is actually very close to

 

[AliBobbyJ]

Colin Jost roasting Biden tonight.

Highlights from the evening:
1. Biden saying the 2024 election will be about the candidates' age. because he (Biden) "is running against a 6 year old."
2. Colin Jost remembering that his grandfather, a NYC firefighter, voted for Biden in 2020 "because Joe Biden is a decent man and this election is about decency."

And there you have it, that's the choice.

Oh, and 3, the joke about how one candidate is facing multi-million dollar lawsuits & criminal conspiracy charges while daily stinking out the NY Courtroom with his farts "and yet the two guys are tied in the polls!"