Var debate 2019/20

[Dribble]

They use more than one camera.

Apparently, but where were the angles of the other two? A ball moving at high speed will be blurred unless a very very high frame rate is used. I couldn't call those fuzzy pictures one way or the other, so where's this definitive 'black & white' they were talking about?

 

[Rolee]

I'm not sure if I'm blowing your mind here mate but total precision/objectivity on position cannot possibly exist. It's a fiction. You may as well invent a dragon monitoring machine. It cannot do the job you're asking of it.

So you do what ever other person who deals with precision does, and accept objective total precision can't exist and introduce tolerances. Those tolerances should be "clear air" rather than "millimetres" because the latter provides no clear advantage to the player, which is the point of the offside rule, and the former does.

So you're saying we can't determine the precise moment of contact but can determine the precise moment of 'clear air'? Genuine question, not trying to be smart, just trying to understand.

 

[ancoats]

something crossed my mind with both the sterling VAR's replays and its the speed of movement and the ruling with the video replay and them blue and red lines final

the technology can not be 100% right and needs a margin of doubt and just like a uk police speed cam they have a margin of doubt in the ruling
UK speed camera tolerances
Most police forces have a tolerance of 10% plus 2mph above the limit before aspeed camera 'flashes'. So on a 30mph road, a camera wouldn't normally activate unless a car drove past at 35mph or above. On a 70mph stretch of motorway, this threshold would go up to 79mph.15 May 2019

this is because of the technology can not be 100% right, and a court of law and a good lawyer will get it over turned on the technology not being 100%
so am saying let there be a (margin of doubt) and if the lines are over lapping each other then its still a goal ?? every body would be fine with it and that TAG of doubt would be fair and until knowing 100% then we all would be happy

 

[hgblue]

I'm not sure if I'm blowing your mind here mate but total precision/objectivity on position cannot possibly exist. It's a fiction. You may as well invent a dragon monitoring machine. It cannot do the job you're asking of it.

So you do what ever other person who deals with precision does, and accept objective total precision can't exist and introduce tolerances. Those tolerances should be "clear air" rather than "millimetres" because the latter provides no clear advantage to the player, which is the point of the offside rule, and the former does.

I wonder if they could introduce a Yellow strip, let's say 2 inches wide, and if the Red line falls within this strip then the player is deemed onside because it's too close to call?

 

[Dribble]

It's really rather simple, the moment the ball is played is the moment the ball is touched, so the first frame where there's contact from the passer is when the line should be drawn.

Exactly! So.as Andy Gray proved, we had a goal incorrectly chalked off.

 

[cleavers]

Apparently, but where were the angles of the other two?

There are far more than 2 cameras, the Neville Carragher video shows them using camera 23, so plenty of angles/frames to view, there is a video analyst who picks the "best".

 

[bluestud]

The whole point of the offside rule is to stop attackers gaining an unfair advantage by being closer to the goal than the defender when the ball is played.
Can we really say a toe or a shoulder gives them that?
Rather than make it 6 or 12 inches make it the attackers whole body, then they can still draw their little lines.

 

[Damocles]

So you're we can't determine the precise moment of contact but can determine the precise moment of 'clear air'? Genuine question, not trying to be smart, just trying to understand.

Yes, we'd define "clear air" to be something that's visually distinct in the same way we've always done. As I said common sense can be applied to the rules.

We can have VAR setup to catch referee and linesmen mistakes with the understanding if the "mistake" was past a reasonable tolerance of human vision such as the millimetres then we acknowledge that's just outside the realm of human beings and carry on.

VAR will make mistakes. Linesmen will make mistakes. VAR will make less but also has the other drawbacks people have been talking about regarding speed/fans etc. So really what the debate here is if you're willing to trade off the accuracy of VAR that doesn't provide the player an advantage to gain the flow of the game back, and if you are, why would you do that? If the player didn't gain an advantage then it doesn't matter where he is stood, essentially.

 

[cleavers]

I wonder if they could introduce a Yellow strip, let's say 2 inches wide, and if the Red line falls within this strip then the player is deemed onside because it's too close to call?

Not a bad idea, a tolerance in fact, same for every occasion.

 

[Damocles]

Not a bad idea, a tolerance in fact, same for every occasion.

Perfect solution. Suits all corners.