VAR Discussion Thread - 2023/24 | PL clubs to vote on whether to scrap VAR (pg413)

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Honestly, I wish that was true.

the whole reasoning for VAR was because officials were getting it so wrong, Clear offsides given as goals, clear no contact dives (remember them?) given as penalty's. It become farcical and fans were demanding video tech when other leagues were starting to use it worldwide.

Now, if we could scrap VAR and fans would truly accept the odd howler from the officials I would be all for that. but it won't happen and no one would be happy soon as their team is robbed by a ridiculous decision.

It's all opinion, and i don't blame you for wanting a return of the old ways.

I'd argue that live game coverage and instant TV replays have put more pressure on the officials to get the on-field decisions correct more than VAR has.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Honestly, I wish that was true.

the whole reasoning for VAR was because officials were getting it so wrong, Clear offsides given as goals, clear no contact dives (remember them?) given as penalty's. It become farcical and fans were demanding video tech when other leagues were starting to use it worldwide.

Now, if we could scrap VAR and fans would truly accept the odd howler from the officials I would be all for that. but it won't happen and no one would be happy soon as their team is robbed by a ridiculous decision.

It's all opinion, and i don't blame you for wanting a return of the old ways.

That was the reasoning from clubs and fans, mostly due to American sport having video replay review for literally two decades by then, and the live coverage from nearly every angle of Premier League matches had made it abundantly clear, in a novel and concerning fashion, that the standard of officiating (for whatever reason, be it incompetence or corruption) was much worse than was acceptable to the masses (and teams being significantly financially harmed).

That was not the reasoning for it on the league’s side, supported by the highly questionable design, implementation, and subsequent modifications of the system itself.

As I have said many times, the governing bodies were dragged kicking and screaming in to adopting video replay review, after years and years of resisting it, for very specific reasons that are quite different to the ones they commonly trotted out before they finally succumbed to public pressure (or that they reference now for why they resist simple changes that would increase transparency and fan confidence).

The governing bodies collaborated to create and maintain a system that they believed would assuage the building anger and frustration without ceding most of the control they had over the game. Many aspects of VAR, as it existed early on and as it exist now, make no sense from the standpoint of ensuring a consistently high standard of accurate and fair officiating across all matches, safeguarding the competitive fairness of the sport. And the PL especially has even made changes—and rejected rules and systems that might make VAR even more effective in achieving it’s stated mission—since inception to make VAR even less transparent under the guise of preserving entertainment value.

Which is the quiet bit being said out loud: football, at this level, is and will continue be an entertainment product more than a sport. That means decisions will be taken in an attempt to preserve the product, including protecting major drivers of revenue, like United, Liverpool, Chelsea, and Arsenal. We may one day join those ranks — some would argue we should already be there, as our success has helped make the PL the dominant league globally. But the powers that be are fighting that tooth and nail for now.

The common retort is that they must not be very good at it given we have dominated English (and now European) football over the past 6 years. And there is some truth to that: they aren’t good enough to overcome our management or Pep’s genius. But that may not always be the case, especially when Pep eventually leaves.

And, once more, the unfair protection can occur even when we are crushing their attempts to hinder us, as we have seen with countless examples of truly farcical officiating displays in games involving the aforementioned cash cows, with the United v Wolves match being an apt example. What happened to Brighton last season, with highly suspect officiating in multiple games contributing to them missing out on the top four, or Leeds being fucked several times before eventually being relegated are cautionary tales for any of the less powerful, well-supported clubs trying to break up the oligarchy.

VAR was never meant to do what the fans wanted it to do. If it had been, it would have been designed and implemented differently. And it certainly would have been modified by now to be much better than it is if they had just “got it wrong” initially.

VAR is one of the problems, because it includes the officials and the rules, policies, and systems that govern what the officials can and cannot do (and what information is provided to the fans and clubs about what they are doing). It may get closer to what we want: a system that enables transparency and confidence in a consistently high standard of accurate and fair officiating.

But I can guarantee that if that happens, it will because the governing bodies were forced in to it, after years of obstruction and defiance under the guise of all manner of nonsensical excuses.

It won’t be because they want to create the most level playing field possible. Anyone that believes that is not a student of the history of the game.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

How did Moss get that job anyway? He only retired from refereeing a few months ago.

It's jobs for the boys. Out goes Riley, in comes Webb. Webb gets rid of Swarbrick and installs Moss as a second layer to protect himself from criticism. They all look after each others interests. Cronyism at is finest.

Jonny has got his breath back, so he can now take on the arduous task of apologising when one of his ilk make a bugger of a game, and VAR compounds the mistake.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

We need this is every game...



Full transparency though, not just released when it makes them look good.

 

[Blue Mist]

I can't find it now but, in either this thread or another, it was discussed why the rags and dippers were allowed not to have screens. @Stephen230 I think you were educating me :-)
I looked into when Var was set up. 2 things struck me. There is no rule insisting clubs have screens and therefore the rags and dippers are NOT being allowed to breach rules.
The second thing is worth noting.
The PL said the idea of having screens was that after a Var decision was made, it would be replayed on the screen and the decision explained to the fans. Ergh right, I wonder why they never started doing that.

 

[blueinsa]

That was the reasoning from clubs and fans, mostly due to American sport having video replay review for literally two decades by then, and the live coverage from nearly every angle of Premier League matches had made it abundantly clear, in a novel and concerning fashion, that the standard of officiating (for whatever reason, be it incompetence or corruption) was much worse than was acceptable to the masses (and teams being significantly financially harmed).

That was not the reasoning for it on the league’s side, supported by the highly questionable design, implementation, and subsequent modifications of the system itself.

As I have said many times, the governing bodies were dragged kicking and screaming in to adopting video replay review, after years and years of resisting it, for very specific reasons that are quite different to the ones they commonly trotted out before they finally succumbed to public pressure (or that they reference now for why they resist simple changes that would increase transparency and fan confidence).

The governing bodies collaborated to create and maintain a system that they believed would assuage the building anger and frustration without ceding most of the control they had over the game. Many aspects of VAR, as it existed early on and as it exist now, make no sense from the standpoint of ensuring a consistently high standard of accurate and fair officiating across all matches, safeguarding the competitive fairness of the sport. And the PL especially has even made changes—and rejected rules and systems that might make VAR even more effective in achieving it’s stated mission—since inception to make VAR even less transparent under the guise of preserving entertainment value.

Which is the quiet bit being said out loud: football, at this level, is and will continue be an entertainment product more than a sport. That means decisions will be taken in an attempt to preserve the product, including protecting major drivers of revenue, like United, Liverpool, Chelsea, and Arsenal. We may one day join those ranks — some would argue we should already be there, as our success has helped make the PL the dominant league globally. But the powers that be are fighting that tooth and nail for now.

The common retort is that they must not be very good at it given we have dominated English (and now European) football over the past 6 years. And there is some truth to that: they aren’t good enough to overcome our management or Pep’s genius. But that may not always be the case, especially when Pep eventually leaves.

And, once more, the unfair protection can occur even when we are crushing their attempts to hinder us, as we have seen with countless examples of truly farcical officiating displays in games involving the aforementioned cash cows, with the United v Wolves match being an apt example. What happened to Brighton last season, with highly suspect officiating in multiple games contributing to them missing out on the top four, or Leeds being fucked several times before eventually being relegated are cautionary tales for any of the less powerful, well-supported clubs trying to break up the oligarchy.

VAR was never meant to do what the fans wanted it to do. If it had been, it would have been designed and implemented differently. And it certainly would have been modified by now to be much better than it is if they had just “got it wrong” initially.

VAR is one of the problems, because it includes the officials and the rules, policies, and systems that govern what the officials can and cannot do (and what information is provided to the fans and clubs about what they are doing). It may get closer to what we want: a system that enables transparency and confidence in a consistently high standard of accurate and fair officiating.

But I can guarantee that if that happens, it will because the governing bodies were forced in to it, after years of obstruction and defiance under the guise of all manner of nonsensical excuses.

It won’t be because they want to create the most level playing field possible. Anyone that believes that is not a student of the history of the game.

Superb post.

 

[VOOMER]

That was the reasoning from clubs and fans, mostly due to American sport having video replay review for literally two decades by then, and the live coverage from nearly every angle of Premier League matches had made it abundantly clear, in a novel and concerning fashion, that the standard of officiating (for whatever reason, be it incompetence or corruption) was much worse than was acceptable to the masses (and teams being significantly financially harmed).

That was not the reasoning for it on the league’s side, supported by the highly questionable design, implementation, and subsequent modifications of the system itself.

As I have said many times, the governing bodies were dragged kicking and screaming in to adopting video replay review, after years and years of resisting it, for very specific reasons that are quite different to the ones they commonly trotted out before they finally succumbed to public pressure (or that they reference now for why they resist simple changes that would increase transparency and fan confidence).

The governing bodies collaborated to create and maintain a system that they believed would assuage the building anger and frustration without ceding most of the control they had over the game. Many aspects of VAR, as it existed early on and as it exist now, make no sense from the standpoint of ensuring a consistently high standard of accurate and fair officiating across all matches, safeguarding the competitive fairness of the sport. And the PL especially has even made changes—and rejected rules and systems that might make VAR even more effective in achieving it’s stated mission—since inception to make VAR even less transparent under the guise of preserving entertainment value.

Which is the quiet bit being said out loud: football, at this level, is and will continue be an entertainment product more than a sport. That means decisions will be taken in an attempt to preserve the product, including protecting major drivers of revenue, like United, Liverpool, Chelsea, and Arsenal. We may one day join those ranks — some would argue we should already be there, as our success has helped make the PL the dominant league globally. But the powers that be are fighting that tooth and nail for now.

The common retort is that they must not be very good at it given we have dominated English (and now European) football over the past 6 years. And there is some truth to that: they aren’t good enough to overcome our management or Pep’s genius. But that may not always be the case, especially when Pep eventually leaves.

And, once more, the unfair protection can occur even when we are crushing their attempts to hinder us, as we have seen with countless examples of truly farcical officiating displays in games involving the aforementioned cash cows, with the United v Wolves match being an apt example. What happened to Brighton last season, with highly suspect officiating in multiple games contributing to them missing out on the top four, or Leeds being fucked several times before eventually being relegated are cautionary tales for any of the less powerful, well-supported clubs trying to break up the oligarchy.

VAR was never meant to do what the fans wanted it to do. If it had been, it would have been designed and implemented differently. And it certainly would have been modified by now to be much better than it is if they had just “got it wrong” initially.

VAR is one of the problems, because it includes the officials and the rules, policies, and systems that govern what the officials can and cannot do (and what information is provided to the fans and clubs about what they are doing). It may get closer to what we want: a system that enables transparency and confidence in a consistently high standard of accurate and fair officiating.

But I can guarantee that if that happens, it will because the governing bodies were forced in to it, after years of obstruction and defiance under the guise of all manner of nonsensical excuses.

It won’t be because they want to create the most level playing field possible. Anyone that believes that is not a student of the history of the game.

So in summary, their all bent?

 

[halfcenturyup]

Now, if we could scrap VAR and fans would truly accept the odd howler from the officials I would be all for that. but it won't happen and no one would be happy soon as their team is robbed by a ridiculous decision.

Ironically, sounds like the debate we should have had before VAR: "if we could have VAR and fans would truly accept the odd howler from the officials, I would be all for that. But it won't happen and no-one would be happy as soon as their team is robbed by a ridiculous decision."

We are where we are, though, I suppose.

 

[BigJoe#1]

I can't find it now but, in either this thread or another, it was discussed why the rags and dippers were allowed not to have screens. @Stephen230 I think you were educating me :-)
I looked into when Var was set up. 2 things struck me. There is no rule insisting clubs have screens and therefore the rags and dippers are NOT being allowed to breach rules.
The second thing is worth noting.
The PL said the idea of having screens was that after a Var decision was made, it would be replayed on the screen and the decision explained to the fans. Ergh right, I wonder why they never started doing that.

I understood that the PL had said they would never show VAR images on the screens for fear of fan reactions.... that said, it still does not give proper explanation as to why scum n scouse don't have them.

 

[Colin Bells Boots]

I understood that the PL had said they would never show VAR images on the screens for fear of fan reactions.... that said, it still does not give proper explanation as to why scum n scouse don't have them.

No shit .

 

[Blue Mist]

I understood that the PL had said they would never show VAR images on the screens for fear of fan reactions.... that said, it still does not give proper explanation as to why scum n scouse don't have them.

I went back to the beginning, just before the introduction of Var. There was never a requirement for stadiums to have Var screens. (For the rags it meant losing seats so they were never going to do it.)
But yep, that's how Var was sold to the fans, screens would be used to explain the decision. Fuck me were gullible.

 

[Stephen230]

I can't find it now but, in either this thread or another, it was discussed why the rags and dippers were allowed not to have screens. @Stephen230 I think you were educating me :-)
I looked into when Var was set up. 2 things struck me. There is no rule insisting clubs have screens and therefore the rags and dippers are NOT being allowed to breach rules.
The second thing is worth noting.
The PL said the idea of having screens was that after a Var decision was made, it would be replayed on the screen and the decision explained to the fans. Ergh right, I wonder why they never started doing that.

If it’s the post I’m thinking of I said I tried to find some proof a while ago of what exactly the rule was.

But all I could find were loads of links to articles saying that the PL were planning on bringing in a rule making a big screen compulsory. But I couldn’t find anything that mentioned that they’d ever actually gone ahead with it.

On your second point, it has long been a rule, well before VAR, that clubs can not show anything that might be considered contentious or controversial on the screens. So that by definition would probably rule out most VAR calls.

I think Forest got fined last year for showing some dodgy pen given against them.

 

[Blue Mist]

If it’s the post I’m thinking of I said I tried to find some proof a while ago of what exactly the rule was.

But all I could find were loads of links to articles saying that the PL were planning on bringing in a rule making a big screen compulsory. But I couldn’t find anything that mentioned that they’d ever actually gone ahead with it.

On your second point, it has long been a rule, well before VAR, that clubs can not show anything that might be considered contentious or controversial on the screens. So that by definition would probably rule out most VAR calls.

I think Forest got fined last year for showing some dodgy pen given against them.

I did send you an apology but I think it was in a thread that got pulled so it got lost. You are quite correct that there is no rule saying clubs must have screens and therefore despite what most of us thought, the rags are not getting a special exemption.
Re the Var screen showing the incident, that's what they said before implementation ....
21st December 2019 on the PL website and I quote....
'In the instance of a referee overturning a decision after consulting Var, a replay of the incident will be shown to supporters so they can see the reason for the overturn'

And yet it's never happened

 

[Stephen230]

I did send you an apology but I think it was in a thread that got pulled so it got lost. You are quite correct that there is no rule saying clubs must have screens and therefore despite what most of us thought, the rags are not getting a special exemption.
Re the Var screen showing the incident, that's what they said before implementation ....
21st December 2019 on the PL website and I quote....
'In the instance of a referee overturning a decision after consulting Var, a replay of the incident will be shown to supporters so they can see the reason for the overturn'

And yet it's never happened

I think I missed whatever it was you were apologising for. Or more likely forgotten. But thanks anyway.

I can’t actually see any of the big screens from my seat at home games. But at away games, yeah I can’t ever remember seeing any replays.

This referee explaining overturns is what they’ve been trialling at the Women’s World Cup I believe. Although I’ve not actually seen any of it.

It’s a bit something and nothing anyway. It’s pretty obvious when they point to their hand or the penalty spot or whatever, what they’re giving.

 

[Kmezn]

I think I missed whatever it was you were apologising for. Or more likely forgotten. But thanks anyway.

I can’t actually see any of the big screens from my seat at home games. But at away games, yeah I can’t ever remember seeing any replays.

This referee explaining overturns is what they’ve been trialling at the Women’s World Cup I believe. Although I’ve not actually seen any of it.

It’s a bit something and nothing anyway. It’s pretty obvious when they point to their hand or the penalty spot or whatever, what they’re giving.

From what I've seen it's not explaining the decision it's just the decision.
E.g. "after consulting var hand ball penalty" which I guess is something but I have no idea if the intention is to explain and the refs haven't been told or if that's all they were told to say

 

[JRockBlues]

From what I've seen it's not explaining the decision it's just the decision.
E.g. "after consulting var hand ball penalty" which I guess is something but I have no idea if the intention is to explain and the refs haven't been told or if that's all they were told to say

I would also imagine that English not always being the first language for the officials at a World tournament they decided to keep things as simple as possible.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Football weekend is upon us.
Of course there is going to be a couple of VAR controversies.
No doubt Kaz will be demanding an explanation from myself.
So instead of reasoned debate and a rational reply that will just fall on deaf ears and get ignored or be accused of being a WUM.

I’ll just respond ‘outrageous,it’s all corrupt!’ Hope that satisfies.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Football weekend is upon us.
Of course there is going to be a couple of VAR controversies.
No doubt Kaz will be demanding an explanation from myself.
So instead of reasoned debate and a rational reply that will just fall on deaf ears and get ignored or be accused of being a WUM.

I’ll just respond ‘outrageous,it’s all corrupt!’ Hope that satisfies.

Finally ...... :)

But I bet you won't be able to hold yourself back. In fact, I would miss it if you didn't.

 

[Bluesince1979]

The ‘clear and obvious error’ shizz is ridiculous and such a get out for VAR

It either IS .. or it ISNT!!!

 

[Stephen230]

The ‘clear and obvious error’ shizz is ridiculous and such a get out for VAR

It either IS .. or it ISNT!!!

What’s a foul?

Seriously, in your own words, how would you define a foul?