VAR Discussion Thread | 2024/25

halfcenturyup said:
We can't get rid of it because then people would be arguing every weekend over referee's decisions. Oh, wait a minute ....

And it cut out diving. Oh, wait a minute ....

And SAOT is now 100% accurate. Or is it?
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I would be highly suspect of any so-called statistics coming out about VAR from the very people pushing it. When we hear stats thrown around like VAR has made it so 99.42847 % of decisions are correct instead of 94.97578% or whatever they claim the %s are, as if that's scientific. Any sort of calculations surrounding this are arbitrary and based on whatever specific decisions they decide to include, which is subjective on its own.

What I've always said about offsides with VAR is that even if they are accurate, it is in no way practical to the run of play, with play being allowed to continue after a offsides situation is seen but not acted upon by the lino. And then we end up with a goal or a corner or whatever the case may be then only for that to be deemed to not to have exist. To pretend as if this problem doesn't exist and all that matters is accuracy of a view, I would just say that they've completely lost the plot when it comes to how that needs to work and how VAR inherently prevents it from working normally. The whole new way of doing offsides is simply unacceptable, even if somehow the SAOT improved accuracy, you've already lost the continuity and the spirit of an offsides. Or a non-offsides. It's like when you watch the Championship and there's a long pass lets say and a player gets to the ball, about in-line with the last defender, and play continues. In normal football you know what that means. That means, Oh wow, he's got a breakaway, this is gonna count whatever happens. You don't have this oh this could really happen but maybe it won't deal. This is not how this is supposed to work and it can never be accepted as normal. By any fan who knows football.

So we can certainly watch and support City but we all know as we're watching that we're not competing in pure normal football. You can't have backwards kickoffs and toe in the water / toe out of the water onside scenarios in football. These are like violations of the sport OK. And all I would say is that we definitely need to keep this at the forefront. That's not to say that we can't enjoy football to some extent even under these conditions, but it should all be taken with a grain of salt and an endless desire to see football put back on the right track and played the normal way, without VAR involvement and interference in the match. And there would be an adjustment in the event that football is returned to normal, but it will find its way again.

An example is as I was watching the Championship match in which Burnley clinched promotion into the Premier League, and as I was watching that match it was a joyful moment in a way but also a moment in which they were going from VAR-less mostly normal football to VAR football. As a fan I almost wish to see my team to play in the Championship just so I can watch them compete in a league without VAR. That's almost backwards thinking in a way but lets face it, that's sort of where we are in today's world. Burnley should be proud of their season with all their epic matches in the Championship without VAR. Take those last 10 minutes or so in that Burnley match when they were about to clinch. And there were several tackles that the ref just let them play on and there was continuous action back and forth. And in the Premier League with VAR you almost never see that. In terms of hard or moderate tackles over and over and the VAR not getting involved.

It was refreshing but for Burnley by reaching their goals they have inadvertently put themselves in VAR's grasp and that is unfortunate. And that's not to say that the Championship should give in to VAR, they absolutely shouldn't. But it also just goes to show how they degrade normal football now relegating it to the Championship. They really need to get their act together, I mean everyone involved in football. It all starts at the FIFA Headquarters of course, but at the English level they really need to come to an agreement that this whole VAR ordeal has really just turned out to be a big problem that hovers over football like a dark cloud. We really need to remove that cloud and bring order and normalcy back to football. And genuine organic excitement, hard tackles and referees letting free flowing competitive immersive back and forth play without the ability of VAR to interfere at any point. Because that's not what actually happens in football, and we need to get back to that, someway somehow.
 
Personally I think VAR will cause a schism in football, possibly anyway. Already the sport is different in Europe than it is here. Its always been that way, reffed to a different standard but VAR is new levels, what is a VAR penalty over there is not and never will be here.

And at some point I suspect a league will/might drop VAR, I wonder what UEFA would do then. Are there any UEFA tier 1 leagues now that dont use VAR?
 
halfcenturyup said:
You don't think it would be given? If you think it's clearly a dive and we now have the benefit of VAR and all its great consistency (sarcasm alert) shouldn't you know it wouldn't be given?

What if it was given by the referee, do you think/know it would currently be reversed by VAR? What if it wasn't given by the referee, do you think/know it would currently be given by VAR?
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He knows it all don't you know?
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Personally I think VAR will cause a schism in football, possibly anyway. Already the sport is different in Europe than it is here. Its always been that way, reffed to a different standard but VAR is new levels, what is a VAR penalty over there is not and never will be here.

And at some point I suspect a league will/might drop VAR, I wonder what UEFA would do then. Are there any UEFA tier 1 leagues now that dont use VAR?
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A schism is definitely needed in football, as I don't see how the current state of affairs is sustainable. Not only is VAR expensive, but it's impractical and has taken resources away from other important areas of football. This causes systemic dysfunction and just a general unease throughout the sport. And curiously there seems to be a kind of red tape protecting VAR from being removed.

VAR is just so utterly counter productive and problematic, whatever benefits it brings does not stack up to the amount of problems that it creates. I mean I get the theoretical desire to have a fail safe mechanism to prevent the rare howler, but what they've created through that idea is a kind of a monster that hovers over football.

And I was just thinking about this in the sense that what VAR does is that it tries to normalize the idea that getting it right the first time isn't a big deal as long as a wrong is then corrected. And that's really the wrong mantra to have. Referees need to be urged to get it right the first time, and to not look back. If you're constantly looking over your shoulder, if you're constantly second guessing yourself, you can't be confident in your decision-making. Thinking that you need help when you're more than equipped to do the job yourself is just a recipe for disaster. And when they screw up, they'll hear about it, and that's part of how tough it is to be a ref. But they're paid well for having such a difficult job. But their job has been made much more difficult with VAR, having to second-guess themself and be told they are wrong when another set of eyeballs thinks they messed up, it's gotta be insulting to have your decisions questioned in such a public way. They're supposed to be the sole arbitrator, and to use an analogy, VAR really is like having too many cooks in the kitchen.

Just seeing a ref run over to a monitor like a little school boy being scolded by a teacher, it's so demeaning. I just can't believe that they would tolerate such a thing to be normalized. It's public humiliation for a referee to be whisked away to a little monitor, only to then be guided through how to interpret an incident, as though he's too stupid to make the decision on his own. I don't know how anyone in their right mind could have ever envisioned this sort of thing ever being part of football.

If someone would have come up to you 10 or 15 years ago and described such a thing, any fan of football would laugh and think you were crazy for even suggesting such a thing. But yet here we are with this sort of thing being pushed and pushed despite any and all resistance to it, by fans, players and managers. It's as if football has been hijacked and is being held ransom by VAR, and none of us deserve seeing football reduced in such a way. Fans need to demand that VAR be brought to its knees, and taken out of football. And yeah, dominos can fall but only after that first domino is pushed over. We've seen the Scandinavian countries have voiced strong opposition to it. Sweden successfully rejected VAR, whilst Norway followed suit in a preliminary vote, only for a second vote to occur to overrule it.

And to understand what happened there in Norway with the VAR vote, then the reversal, I highly recommend listening to this podcast :



He gives a first hand account to what happened there, how corrupt the whole process was, with the pro-VARers essentially throwing money at smaller clubs in exchange for them voting VAR to overrule those who voted against. It also really gives you a sense of how VAR subjective their decisions are, whilst they try to pretend as if they know it's accurate.
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Personally I think VAR will cause a schism in football, possibly anyway. Already the sport is different in Europe than it is here. Its always been that way, reffed to a different standard but VAR is new levels, what is a VAR penalty over there is not and never will be here.

And at some point I suspect a league will/might drop VAR, I wonder what UEFA would do then. Are there any UEFA tier 1 leagues now that dont use VAR?
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Sweden don’t use it. And last I read, Norway had voted to stop using it.

It’s a decision for each individual league. As far as I know, UEFA haven’t ever put pressure on league’s to use it.
 
Stephen230 said:
Sweden don’t use it. And last I read, Norway had voted to stop using it.

It’s a decision for each individual league. As far as I know, UEFA haven’t ever put pressure on league’s to use it.
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My takeaway from that was that if a major league like the Premier League or another prominent league like La Liga for example were to sack VAR, that could start a domino effect, that such an event would spurn on other leagues to do the same. And I think the dynamic when there was the Premier League vote with Wolves was that behind the scenes surely there was a push by those behind VAR to incentivize PL clubs to vote for VAR. And it's just one of those things that we're never gonna hear about.

But I think that podcast posted above shedding light onto the Norway situation and what happened there very well could be similar to what happened to the Premier League. Whether it would be the FIFA Headquarters calling themself and threatening the league to do whatever they have to do to keep VAR. If that means paying off smaller clubs in a bigger vote like in Norway. If that means paying off all the clubs to vote for VAR, to avoid a major domino to fall against VAR. That certainly appears to be what happened in Norway at the very least, and would sound similar to what we suspect would be going on in other leagues that have tried to rid themself of VAR. It isn't easy for leagues to break away when VAR has them in their clutches.

While yes Sweden were able to successfully reject VAR, Norway was unable to due to a very suspicious series of events. But I don't think even Norway voting to do away with VAR would necessarily be a major domino. Although it could, but those leagues are not really big enough to really make a impact that would reverberate or make a difference in the fight against VAR. To win the fight against VAR, there would either need for there to be a new FIFA President take over for the current one, or for prominent leagues like the PL or La Liga to successfully sack VAR. And the deck seems to be really stacked against this from being allowed to happen, which is suspicious on its own, as no such restrictions seemed to exist for VAR to be implemented, nor were there for VAR to be endlessly tweaked and mortified during the season. It certainly gives the impression that it's being controlled in unknown ways to keep it from being removed.

So the whole situation is quite the predicament, and I would encourage anyone who would like to see football return to its full glory that we really need to get this over the line. The Pro-VARers will fight for VAR to stay, but we can't let that happen. If the support to sack VAR is overwhelming and persistent they won't be able to top that. But there needs to be an urgency and a clear strategy to remove this albatross from football and in a way that ensures that nothing like this could ever be attempted again. We need to have peace of mind when watching football, with no disturbances or interference allowed.
 
hcblue95 said:
Rio Ferdinand: 'I don't commentate differently for Manchester City and Manchester united games'.
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It’s no suprise you’d dismiss his views, same for anyone who’s obsessed with being anti VAR, however he’s officiated over a 1000 games and seems pretty respected - I’ll take his word.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
It’s no suprise you’d dismiss his views, same for anyone who’s obsessed with being anti VAR, however he’s officiated over a 1000 games and seems pretty respected - I’ll take his word.
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It's important to point out that Mr. Cann has admitted that he suffers from the haunting of a bad decision he made as a lino. As a lino rather than a main referee, his statements are curious, in that it is well known that since VAR was introduced that linos have been instructed to keep the flag down and allow play to continue, a stark contrast to how linos made decisions prior to VAR in which they were much more willing and able to put the flag up and call what they see. So for him to claim that match officials do not referee matches differently with VAR, given his experience as a lino, we know this is patently untrue. If it were true, then linos would not be keeping the flag down as often as they do with VAR, as they are being told to do by those in charge of VAR, because VAR needs them to do that so that VAR can review at its leisure and then decide whether the play on segment would count or not after the fact, which of course is a glaring problem with VAR and offsides which he would know all too well.

So we find ourselves in a twilight zone of sorts with statements like this. He's a lino, and as a lino he would know full well that his decision-making and his willingness to put the flag up has changed with VAR, yet here he claims it hasn't. And I don't see how he can speak for main referees since he hasn't that experience.

This would just seem to be an instinctive reaction to what we've been discussing about how demeaning VAR is to referees. Mr. Cann as a lino wouldn't have the experience of being brought to the monitor to know what that is like, but he would sure know well about how VAR has urged him and his fellow linos to keep the flag down which is his sole purpose as a lino.

So I'm sure Mr. Cann is a stand up guy trying to stick up for VAR, probably due to his own haunting of an offsides call he once missed way back when. And this sort of thing would seem to be one of the driving elements that has caused so many referees and linos to side with VAR and to defend it to the gills as a response to criticism. The fact that he's making this argument at all shows that VAR is in deep trouble as it pertains to public confidence and this would seem to be an attempt to quell those criticisms.
 
You can't quell criticism by making objectively untrue statements like Mr. Cann is making. He may have the best of intentions thinking that VAR is the way forward and wanting to put that over in any way he can. But what he's saying is simply not accurate when we know quite clearly how the situation with linos has changed with VAR, and changed drastically. But maybe not as much as how main refereeing has changed which he wouldn't know much about. So either way his statements only reinforce the problems that VAR has caused and the poor attempts to pretend as if VAR hasn't negatively affecting refereeing when we know quite clearly how it has or that it hasn't changed how they operate when we know quite clearly that is has.

I would encourage Mr. Cann to reconsider his position and to come clean on what VAR has done to how linos make decisions, namely how they are told to keep the flag down now which is a well known fact at this point. But he's trying to pull the wool over our eyes on this. Linoing was his bread and butter and he's lived through this whole ordeal so he would know how it all changed. Now that linos essentially aren't allowed to do their job anymore, due to VAR, they're in danger of being replaced entirely, as they pretty much serve no purpose anymore since they are now afraid to put the flag up and prevent VAR from being allowed to work. Since VAR has been introduced, they very clearly aren't being allowed to call what they see anymore as that would render VAR offsides reviews obsolete.

And again Mr. Cann is probably a stand up guy and was a competent lino, on the one hand being honest about how a missed offsides decision haunts him, which would lead him right into the VAR is the answer crowd. But on the other hand he isn't being honest with his claim that linos make decisions with VAR the same way they did before. And it's really insulting to the fanbase to hear former officials make these kind of statements when we all know full well how VAR has changed how referees officiate, particularly linos more than anyone given the offsides dilemma. This really highlights what VAR has done to the minds of those who participate in the sport. They have been conditioned to twist everything in a way to make VAR sound like it's working well and not a problem when nothing could be further from the truth.
 
What I would say to Mr. Cann as it pertains to his missed call that haunts him is that, pushing for VAR as the way forward is not going to allow you to get that missed decision way back when that haunts you back. And I understand the mental gymnastics and moral conundrum that he must be going through as a result of that. He naturally wouldn't want to see a lino have to endure a missed call that affected a result and has stuck with him all these years later, and given that he would have every reason to want to work on behalf of VAR to prevent that inevitability.

But on the other hand, your missed call that haunts you, that's your conscience knowing that you should have been able to see that and not lose your concentration there if you had another chance to get that call right. But that's the nature of the job of a lino. But you shouldn't beat yourself up over it, and pushing for VAR now isn't going to correct that injustice. Linos are human beings and occasionally could make a mistake. Mr. Cann shouldn't be defined by his missed call. I'm sure over the course of his career he's been a fine lino and one mistake doesn't erase all the correct calls he made.

But all those correct calls he made he can be proud of because he made those decisions on his own in real-time, without anyone's help, and aside of maybe a single missed decision that still haunts him, which shows if nothing else that he recognizes the importance of his job and the need to get the call right the first time.

And that's an important takeaway with what he said. He actually said "My mindset is to eradicate VAR from that 90 minutes by getting my decisions right. Our mindset is to make the right decision." And on this point, as true as it may be to him inherently, this mindset is glaringly incongruent with having VAR as a backup.

Linos mindset should be to eradicate VAR, not just over the 90 minutes in which they are on the sideline, but also generally, as eradicating VAR from the sport wholly. We've pointed out that there's a continuity problem of allowing play to continue rather than putting the flag up right then and there and getting on with. That whole dilemma creates a new eventuality regardless of the decision. So what I would say to Mr. Cann is to forgive yourself for that one missed decision that sticks out over a career's work of being a fine lino. One mistake doesn't define an official's entire career. But VAR has opened a whole new can of worms that doesn't actually allow a lino to do his job the way he's supposed to, which as a lino, as haunted by a missed call as he may be, can't be acceptable as someone who takes pride in the decisions that they make an the ability and the will to make the correct decision as often as possible, in real-time as it occurs. Mistakes will happen occasionally. A loss of concentration leading to a missed call is unfortunate, but that is in the past and VAR isn't going to undo that wrong, nor should that wrong be elevated to attempt to use it to justify this whole new can of worms put into the equation by VAR.
 
TheBeautifulGame said:
You can't quell criticism by making objectively untrue statements like Mr. Cann is making. He may have the best of intentions thinking that VAR is the way forward and wanting to put that over in any way he can. But what he's saying is simply not accurate when we know quite clearly how the situation with linos has changed with VAR, and changed drastically. But maybe not as much as how main refereeing has changed which he wouldn't know much about. So either way his statements only reinforce the problems that VAR has caused and the poor attempts to pretend as if VAR hasn't negatively affecting refereeing when we know quite clearly how it has or that it hasn't changed how they operate when we know quite clearly that is has.

I would encourage Mr. Cann to reconsider his position and to come clean on what VAR has done to how linos make decisions, namely how they are told to keep the flag down now which is a well known fact at this point. But he's trying to pull the wool over our eyes on this. Linoing was his bread and butter and he's lived through this whole ordeal so he would know how it all changed. Now that linos essentially aren't allowed to do their job anymore, due to VAR, they're in danger of being replaced entirely, as they pretty much serve no purpose anymore since they are now afraid to put the flag up and prevent VAR from being allowed to work. Since VAR has been introduced, they very clearly aren't being allowed to call what they see anymore as that would render VAR offsides reviews obsolete.

And again Mr. Cann is probably a stand up guy and was a competent lino, on the one hand being honest about how a missed offsides decision haunts him, which would lead him right into the VAR is the answer crowd. But on the other hand he isn't being honest with his claim that linos make decisions with VAR the same way they did before. And it's really insulting to the fanbase to hear former officials make these kind of statements when we all know full well how VAR has changed how referees officiate, particularly linos more than anyone given the offsides dilemma. This really highlights what VAR has done to the minds of those who participate in the sport. They have been conditioned to twist everything in a way to make VAR sound like it's working well and not a problem when nothing could be further from the truth.
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You're skewing what he is saying, Yes the flagging has changed due to VAR but his intentions to call a offside offside has not changed which is the point he is making - Lets just say you was a Ref for example, you would give a penalty if you felt so right ? Now lets just say you heard in your earpiece there was no contact do you want to check for yourself on the monitor - you would do so right ? and if you see that it wasn't actually a penalty you would reverse the decision ?

Now the point is, despite giving the penalty in good faith and reversing the decision in good faith you will then be accused of reffing the game differently thanks to VAR, accusations that its the officials in the control room who gave the verdict, that it was Gary Neville calling it ! that you was to weak to stand by your original decision, that you are corrupt! endless shite thrown at you - That's where i see Canns angle here.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
You're skewing what he is saying, Yes the flagging has changed due to VAR but his intentions to call a offside offside has not changed which is the point he is making
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Not skewing, reading the between the lines and trying to parse what he's saying and to speak to the internal conflict that he has experienced which has caused him to make such a statement. What you've said about how flagging has changed due to VAR but his intent would still be to call offside offside on the pitch is in direct conflict with one another! VAR doesn't let linos do that since they are instructed to keep the flag down. You can't call offside offside on the pitch if you can't put the flag up.

You can't claim to have the intent to call offside offsides if you are instructed to keep the flag down and to some extent prevented from doing so, out of fear of putting the flag up and then rendering VAR unable to correct such an action due to play being stopped. What I take from what he said is that he's actually speaking to the fact that his intent is still to make the correct call in the first place which is not only commendable but it only serves to point out that he has an internal conflict here, as VAR doesn't allow linos to do that as the failsafe can only be utilized if they are prevented from making marginal decisions in real-time.
BlueHammer85 said:
Lets just say you was a Ref for example, you would give a penalty if you felt so right ? Now lets just say you heard in your earpiece there was no contact do you want to check for yourself on the monitor - you would do so right ? and if you see that it wasn't actually a penalty you would reverse the decision ?
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The common thread here is that it is vitally important to make the decision on the pitch in real-time and as he said, to eradicate VAR over the 90, an admirable position to take. But also an untenable position to take as a lino given the differences in nature to a referee making a pen / no pen decision vs a lino making an offside decision.

A pen / no pen decision often doesn't have the continuity problem of an offsides since often a referee will call for the spot more with VAR knowing that this will cause play to be stopped to set up the penalty which conveniently allows a review to commence during a stopped sequence. If you allow play to continue and you don't call for the spot then it becomes more of a disruption to the match for the VAR to review the incident with play continuing and then for potentially play to then be stopped for a potential review to occur, which is far more disruptive to the match, but again it is all contingent on when or if the ref calls for a penalty on the pitch.

BlueHammer85 said:
Now the point is, despite giving the penalty in good faith and reversing the decision in good faith you will then be accused of reffing the game differently thanks to VAR, accusations that its the officials in the control room who gave the verdict, that it was Gary Neville calling it ! that you was to weak to stand by your original decision, that you are corrupt! endless shite thrown at you - That's where i see Canns angle here.
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The pen / no pen example though doesn't apply to Mr. Cann angle since he is not a main referee and wouldn't have the experience to speak to that. His expertise is as a lino which deals primarily with offsides decisions. Which as I pointed out illustrates that it would be inconsistent with his area of expertise to comment on the main referee's decsion-making and how that has changed in regards to pen / no-en decision process rather than offsides.

The changes to how the linos make decisions is more clear and straight forward than how the main referee since it's a well known fact that since VAR linos are instructed to keep their flags down, makinghis argument patently untrue as it relates to linos. As it relates to main referees and pen / no-pen decisions, that's more open to interpretation. But as it pertains to Mr. Cann's angle here, it would only be relevant from a lino perspective as it pertains to offsides which I've already illustrated is inherently flawed from a continuity perspective as it pertains to VAR, and that we all well know and as you've even admitted that the flagging has infact changed, rendering his statement utterly farcical or VARcicle as they say.
 
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