VAR Discussion Thread | 2024/25

[stonerblue]

"Professional Gaslighting Match Officials Ltd"

© Martin Samuel


He fucking nails it.

link?

 

[BlueHammer85]

An official getting it wrong can be 'taken on the chin'. VAR get it wrong and it is very, very annoying.

Agree it's worse when officials still get it wrong despite a replay however without VAR fans rarely take a bad decision on the chin - constant outrage and cries of corruption.

 

[halfcenturyup]

I would say the lino is in a good position but did he think Haaland nicked the ball past Henderson first? What I don't understand is neither Marmoush nor Haaland appealed at the time for handball. Had they had done so it may have swayed the ref / liner. Ref had no chance of seeing it, he was probably 25 yards behind play. And Haaland was also nudged in the back just before he tried to toe the ball away. I wonder what happened if he had gone over?

View attachment 156750

He isn't in any position to make an offside decision, should one be required. I don't know why not. And so he can't judge if the handball was inside or outside the box. It's a poor position.

And if he thinks Haaland nicked it first, it doesn't make any difference, it's still handball denying a DOGSO. Unless he just didn't see Henderson touch it. I think everybody saw that.

Despite all that, I don't blame him. It's a tough job and I doubt he made the wrong call on purpose. I would be happier without VAR so I can't really complain when a mistake is made by the onfield officials.

But we do have VAR and this is solely down to them.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Ref had no chance of seeing it

and this is the problem - he should get a look to see it or he is being left to make a blind decison which was often the case, how many times do refs give major decsions on the back of the reaction from the crowd and players, happens all the time and its farcical. Ref should have been sent to the monitor, saw it was a handball and show the keeper a red card - would anyone have a problem with that or does it harm the enjoyment experiance ?

 

[halfcenturyup]

Agree it's worse when officials still get it wrong despite a replay however without VAR fans rarely take a bad decision on the chin - constant outrage and cries of corruption.

There is constant outrage and there are cries of corruption now, and there always will be.

Again, the only question at the end of the day is whether people think VAR benefits the game more than it ruins the football experience.

 

[Paladin]

Well to be honest I don't know.
The ref missed the incident.
'Clear and obvious error' refers to an incident that has been seen by the ref, a decision has been made and is considered by VAR to be incorrect.
However in this case no refereeing decision was made because the ref didn't see the incident so the 'clear and obvious error' doesn't apply.
What @ Stephen230 seems to be implying is that in such circumstances VAR steps in,makes the decision for the referee who then has to accept it and has no authority to go to the monitor and come to his own decision.
I find this hard to accept because this would mean a distinction in the protocol of how VAR interacts with referees for offences seen by the referee and those which he doesn't see.
But I don't know.
Any VAR experts out there?

No VAR experts, but imagine a scenario where player A thumps player B off the ball, unseen by referee or linesman, but picked up by VAR. This would be brought to the attention of the officials and player A would be sent off.

In our case, VAR should have sorted Attwell to a potential missed red card decision.

 

[stonerblue]

Agree it's worse when officials still get it wrong despite a replay however without VAR fans rarely take a bad decision on the chin - constant outrage and cries of corruption.

And what do we have now? Seems like the whole world is crying corruption/incompetence about the handball.

 

[BlueHammer85]

And what do we have now? Seems like the whole world is crying corruption/incompetence about the handball.

bad decision with VAR is blown up 100x more (I don't mind at all, I think constant scrutiny can only help as VAR can find ways to improve) I don't like the thought of scrapping it and just taking these decisions on the chin. That's pretty much my mindset on this.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Again, the only question at the end of the day is whether people think VAR benefits the game more than it ruins the football experience.

ok, lets give the officials the benefit of doubt and assume they did not see that handball or offside in real time.

Lets also assume below questions was presented to you before the match.


Palace keeper handballs outside the area denying Haaland a goal scoring chance.

would you rather -

A) VAR tell the ref to go have a quick look at the monitor, he sees it's a intentional handball and sends the keeper off.

or

B) not to ruin the football experience, we have no VAR .. just take it on the chin and palace keeper gets a away with the handball?


likewise Palace second goal which was offside.

A) VAR inform the ref it was offside and the goal is not given

or

B) Not to ruin the football experience, we have no VAR and Palace offside goal is allowed to stand ?

 

[halfcenturyup]

lino didn't also see Palace offside goal and that would have been awarded a goal without VAR, its not corruption its perhaps just a very tough ask however simple it looks on TV - officials getting basic wrong decisions has happened for decades, we either carry on accepting that and scrap VAR which is fine or we don't and look at ways so officials can get the vast majority of these basic decisions correct.

:)

The officials did get the vast majority of basic decisions right before VAR.

No-one was more understanding of the difficulties the officials faced before VAR than me, but that didn't stop me cursing and swearing until I calmed down and came to the conclusion it's a tough job and they can make mistakes.

This is why I was in favour of VAR on the basis of how it was sold - correcting big mistakes. When it was introduced everyone was referencing a couple of high profile mistakes over five years or so. All good.

But what we have now isn't that. Imho it's way too intrusive, has led to over-complicated rules that can't be understood in the ground, has ruined a vital part of the match day experience, and hasn't even cut out high profile errors.

Anyway enough. You should know my position by now, and I certainly know yours ..... :)

 

[stonerblue]

bad decision with VAR is blown up 100x more (I don't mind at all, I think constant scrutiny can only help as VAR can find ways to improve) I don't like the thought of scrapping it and just taking these decisions on the chin. That's pretty much my mindset on this.

Exactly. So how is var any better for the game and supporters enjoyment?

 

[BossHog]

bad decision with VAR is blown up 100x more (I don't mind at all, I think constant scrutiny can only help as VAR can find ways to improve) I don't like the thought of scrapping it and just taking these decisions on the chin. That's pretty much my mindset on this.

Not improving tho is it. Not if we are still getting these situations.

 

[Manc Born & Bred]

He isn't in any position to make an offside decision, should one be required. I don't know why not. And so he can't judge if the handball was inside or outside the box. It's a poor position.

And if he thinks Haaland nicked it first, it doesn't make any difference, it's still handball denying a DOGSO. Unless he just didn't see Henderson touch it. I think everybody saw that.

Despite all that, I don't blame him. It's a tough job and I doubt he made the wrong call on purpose. I would be happier without VAR so I can't really complain when a mistake is made by the onfield officials.

But we do have VAR and this is solely down to them.

On the offside he was in a good position when Gvardiol launched the ball forward, he then has to run 35 yards to try and keep up with play, he wasn't that far behind to be fair when Haaland has the ball taken off him. As you say though, the VAR officials have multiple angles, slow motion etc and whilst the ref was in no position to judge, the liner had a better one but the muppets at Stockley Park had the best one.

From the laws of the game, the bit I have highlighted is key. It was a deliberate handball, Haaland was relatively central and even going around Henderson wouldn't have left him with an awkward angle. No defenders near him as they were going towards goal, Haaland would have gained control of the ball. In what world does it not satisfy all elements for a straight red card?

Where a player commits an offence against an opponent within their own penalty area which denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity and the referee awards a penalty kick, the offender is cautioned if the offence was an attempt to play the ball or a challenge for the ball; in all other circumstances (e.g. holding, pulling, pushing, no possibility to play the ball etc.), the offending player must be sent off.

Where a player denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by committing a deliberate handball offence, the player is sent off wherever the offence occurs (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area).

Where a player denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by committing a non-deliberate handball offence and the referee awards a penalty kick, the offender is cautioned.

A player, sent-off player, substitute or substituted player who enters the field of play without the required referee's permission and interferes with play or an opponent and denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity is guilty of a sending-off offence.

The following must be considered:

• distance between the offence and the goal
• general direction of the play
• likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
• location and number of defenders

 

[BlueHammer85]

Not improving tho is it. Not if we are still getting these situations.

We will always get these situations; no system is flawless. VAR does and has more of a chance to decrease the amount of wrong decisions, let's face it when VAR correctly overturns an offside decision for example it generally just forgotten, like the Palace second goal. vast majority of decisions VAR is helping the ref get to the right outcome.

 

[halfcenturyup]

ok, lets give the officials the benefit of doubt and assume they did not see that handball or offside in real time.

Lets also assume below questions was presented to you before the match.


Palace keeper handballs outside the area denying Haaland a goal scoring chance.

would you rather -

A) VAR tell the ref to go have a quick look at the monitor, he sees it's a intentional handball and sends the keeper off.

or

B) not to ruin the football experience, we have no VAR .. just take it on the chin and palace keeper gets a away with the handball?


likewise Palace second goal which was offside.

A) VAR inform the ref it was offside and the goal is not given

or

B) Not to ruin the football experience, we have no VAR and Palace offside goal is allowed to stand ?

:) Seriously?

Clearly, the best solution is that the onfield officials get all the decisions right. But that will never happen.

The next best solution is that VAR corrects all the mistakes made by the onfield officials. That will never happen either.

So again. The question is whether, overall (not in one particular match), VAR improves the game more than it damages it. You think yes, I think no.

 

[trublue55]

ok, lets give the officials the benefit of doubt and assume they did not see that handball or offside in real time.

Lets also assume below questions was presented to you before the match.


Palace keeper handballs outside the area denying Haaland a goal scoring chance.

would you rather -

A) VAR tell the ref to go have a quick look at the monitor, he sees it's a intentional handball and sends the keeper off.

or

B) not to ruin the football experience, we have no VAR .. just take it on the chin and palace keeper gets a away with the handball?


likewise Palace second goal which was offside.

A) VAR inform the ref it was offside and the goal is not given

or

B) Not to ruin the football experience, we have no VAR and Palace offside goal is allowed to stand ?

ffs, are you serious?
your first scenario, neither of them happen. What we got was, referee "missed it" , not good, but human error etc, shit happens, but (panic over, we have VAR to fall back on, they'll sort it !)
Hmmmmn!!!
The ref / lino missing it is just about excusable, VAR getting it wrong IS NOT!!

Given we've already got it, don't think realistically they are going to scrap VAR, (they don't need to) what is needed is competent and consistent application of existing rules.

Both your scenarios allude to VAR helping, as option B obviously is not a good option, but option A is only any good, when they get it right, simply because to view it numerous times, and still get it wrong is unacceptable.

 

[BlueHammer85]

ffs, are you serious?
your first scenario, neither of them happen. What we got was, referee "missed it" , not good, but human error etc, shit happens, but (panic over, we have VAR to fall back on, they'll sort it !)
Hmmmmn!!!
The ref / lino missing it is just about excusable, VAR getting it wrong IS NOT!!

Given we've already got it, don't think realistically they are going to scrap VAR, (they don't need to) what is needed is competent and consistent application of existing rules.

Both your scenarios allude to VAR helping, as option B obviously is not a good option, but option A is only any good, when they get it right, simply because to view it numerous times, and still get it wrong is unacceptable.

I've agreed that they got it wrong on review and its unacceptable, not quite sure what I can do about it.
however, the overall question is if that the officials on-field did not see the handball or offside would you rather take it on the chin without VAR or have VAR tell the ref to have a second look?

 

[BossHog]

We are we are now with VAR. it picks up incidents as it should and the VAR team , all 45 of them in that room, seem time and time again to go against the rules of the game.

Offside was picked ip and correct decision applied, handball picked up and correct decision not applied.

IMO that’s not a mistake, a decision where a player should get a red is not correctly given stinks of corruption.

 

[halfcenturyup]

On the offside he was in a good position when Gvardiol launched the ball forward, he then has to run 35 yards to try and keep up with play, he wasn't that far behind to be fair when Haaland has the ball taken off him. As you say though, the VAR officials have multiple angles, slow motion etc and whilst the ref was in no position to judge, the liner had a better one but the muppets at Stockley Park had the best one.

From the laws of the game, the bit I have highlighted is key. It was a deliberate handball, Haaland was relatively central and even going around Henderson wouldn't have left him with an awkward angle. No defenders near him as they were going towards goal, Haaland would have gained control of the ball. In what world does it not satisfy all elements for a straight red card?

Where a player commits an offence against an opponent within their own penalty area which denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity and the referee awards a penalty kick, the offender is cautioned if the offence was an attempt to play the ball or a challenge for the ball; in all other circumstances (e.g. holding, pulling, pushing, no possibility to play the ball etc.), the offending player must be sent off.

Where a player denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by committing a deliberate handball offence, the player is sent off wherever the offence occurs (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area).

Where a player denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by committing a non-deliberate handball offence and the referee awards a penalty kick, the offender is cautioned.

A player, sent-off player, substitute or substituted player who enters the field of play without the required referee's permission and interferes with play or an opponent and denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity is guilty of a sending-off offence.

The following must be considered:

• distance between the offence and the goal
• general direction of the play
• likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
• location and number of defenders

I think we all agree it should have been a red card if either the referee or the linesman had seen where Henderson's hand was. They didn't.

I think we all agree VAR refereed the occasion not the offence. Not much can be done about that.

My only point is that the linesman couldn't see it because he wasn't in the correct position. I am not even blaming him. The fat git :)

 

[thegoatsthegoat]

I've agreed that they got it wrong on review and its unacceptable, not quite sure what I can do about it.
however, the overall question is if that the officials on-field did not see the handball or offside would you rather take it on the chin without VAR or have VAR tell the ref to have a second look?

You ignored my valid question and then I see you repeat the same bollocks, you say no system is flawless. For the red card on Saturday a flawless system isn't needed is it. Your excuse to horrible decisions and games being ruined is "nothing is perfect" well no it isn't but it should be close to if they are looking at a million angles of a clear incident shouldn't it. Your game yesterday had the longest wait I have seen. You keep talking of it improving but it fucking isn't and you are simply digging a hole deeper instead of saying, it isn't what you hoped for, it is bollocks, it still gets clearly things very wrong and it is ruining the game for match going fans. You still bastard defend it, how and why