VAR thread 2022/23

[hammocity]

He’s now come back and has been touting himself to PGMOL and Sky etc as an ‘expert’
Nobody will touch him with a barge pole
So that usually means he’ll soon have a gig on TalkShite

I didn’t know about Talkshite, Clatternberg absolutely embarrassed himself on there saying Women refs need to concentrate on their career or have a family, he said they couldn’t do both. He got pilloried for that.

 

[SebastianBlue]

It's still clearly nowhere near in the right place.

Trying to apply a line to a low res image at a lower frame rate, without calibration, and just one camera angle is nothing like the process that VAR uses. And as you say VAR isn't perfect. The arguments on here are usually about how a VAR image could be out by miles even with much more accurate sources than this image.

Var isn’t actually that much more accurate, either, because of the limitations of the cameras being used (and the dependence on the VAR to set variables as inputs to the calculations). That’s ignoring margin of error (inherent in all systems of this type) and “blind spot” situations, such as the one we are debating.

But we both agree that VAR has quite a bit of room to improve in this regard.

 

[SebastianBlue]

If they were designing a system from scratch to surreptitiously fiddle the outcome of games or influence betting patterns I don''t think they could come up with a better system than what we have now. It's near perfect and there is zero truly independent scrutiny.

Obviously I'm not saying that's what VAR is for, but...

Yes, if I was being forced to bring in video review, after literally decades of resisting it for “reasons”, and I wanted to protect at least some ability to influence outcomes, this is the way I would design and implement it.

 

[KentBlue]

Obviously I'm not saying that's what VAR is for, but...

I'll put my neck above the parapet, that is EXACTLY what var is being used for.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

I'll put my neck above the parapet, that is EXACTLY what var is being used for.

Surely not... "Scudamore's strategic plan"???

 

[Stephen230]

How is what I have said the “exact opposite conclusion”?

I was accepting as true what the Twitter user from @BlueHammer85 ‘s post said and then asking a question based on it.

What you’ve just said makes no sense.

The Twitter quote said, “He ( the linesman) will have communicated over comms there was an offside”

You took from that, “He ( the referee ) ensured the flag was raised…..”

For clarity, the Twitter quote is suggesting the linesman told the referee over comms there was an offside previously in the move. The referee pointing at him was to tell him, now is the time to flag. That’s not ensuring he flags or calling him back from his sprint to the half way line that other people seem to have decided is now fact. That’s telling him the appropriate time to flag an offside he’s already verbally called.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Surely not... "Scudamore's strategic plan"???

Never.

They have designed and implemented everything to make the league fair, balanced, and a close to a perfect meritocracy as possible.

If City so happens to come in with money and the best manager in football and begin to dominate the league every season, they’ll applaud our achievement, not try to implement rules to curtail investment in our club, protect rival cash cow clubs, or influence match outcomes to increase competitiveness, fan entertainment, and advertising/sponsorship revenue.

You are just paranoid!

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Never.

They have designed and implemented everything to make the league fair, balanced, and a close to a perfect meritocracy as possible.

If City so happens to come in with money and the best manager in football and begin to dominate the league every season, they’ll applaud our achievement, not try to implement rules to curtail investment in our club, protect rival cash cow clubs, or influence match outcomes to increase competitiveness, fan entertainment, and advertising/sponsorship revenue.

You are just paranoid!

Does that mean I qualify as a 'Blinkered Crackpot'?

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Arsenal, breaking the game up because they’re getting the run-around.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

The Twitter quote said, “He ( the linesman) will have communicated over comms there was an offside”

You took from that, “He ( the referee ) ensured the flag was raised…..”

For clarity, the Twitter quote is suggesting the linesman told the referee over comms there was an offside previously in the move. The referee pointing at him was to tell him, now is the time to flag. That’s not ensuring he flags or calling him back from his sprint to the half way line that other people seem to have decided is now fact. That’s telling him the appropriate time to flag an offside he’s already verbally called.

All this he said/they said bollocks is PURE SPECULATION.

Until the PL/PGMOL/FA release full undoctored/unedited communications between all match officials we can't begin to fathom out how/why they reach the decisions they do.

And I'm pretty sure they'd like to ensure it stays that way for as long as they keep getting away with it.

 

[SebastianBlue]

The Twitter quote said, “He ( the linesman) will have communicated over comms there was an offside”

You took from that, “He ( the referee ) ensured the flag was raised…..”

For clarity, the Twitter quote is suggesting the linesman told the referee over comms there was an offside previously in the move. The referee pointing at him was to tell him, now is the time to flag. That’s not ensuring he flags or calling him back from his sprint to the half way line that other people seem to have decided is now fact. That’s telling him the appropriate time to flag an offside he’s already verbally called.

The referee gestures to the linesman—to ensure he raised his flag—and only after that did the linesman raise his flag.

The referee ensures the linesman raised his flag. You’ve again explained that the referee did that and then said the referee didn’t do that.

You have a strange way of deciding to redefine words to make your nonsensical statement seem legitimate. Or is it just to be contrarian in a farcical attempt at a “gotcha” in response to my post?

Either way, you look ridiculous (to put it kindly) when you do it.

So, again, I accepted as true what the Twitter user said and asked a logically progressive question: the referee ensures the flag was raised (after presumably being told by the AR that Nunes was offside in the build up), even though he would have known that Nunes was in the ‘blind spot’ on the Anfield pitch where VAR would not be able to review the offside?

 

[SebastianBlue]

Does that mean I qualify as a 'Blinkered Crackpot'?

And Commander of the Conspiracy Brigade.

 

[inchy14]

VAR did good by us though yesterday we can all agree.

Only because the blind **** looking at it didn’t ‘see’ it.

 

[Paladin]

I appreciate the long reply, but to me that first image you replied to looks marginal, and the one below is slightly after the ball is played. Alexander-Arnold is moving towards goal, and Nunes is moving away, so a couple of frames earlier could easily put Nunes offside (especially as he's running out quickly to try to get back onside).

While you say everyone is in line, I can see what you mean, but it's not that simple. They are approximately in line, but the defender, the ball and the attacker are spread over nearly 40m, and the ball is yards to the left of the last defender. All three are moving in different directions. It's simply not possible for the human eye to track that accurately, hence why close offsides get called wrong all the time. Remember the movement from an offside position to an onside one, and the two headers, takes place in a fraction of a second.

It's a really tricky call for a human, and I bet if you went through all the VAR offside overturns so far this season, you'd find many similar decisions, which aren't being debated because VAR was working properly.

I'll do a short reply if it's easier.

Watch yet another clip.



Alexander-Arnold is not moving at pace. Neither is Nunez. Freeze the clip at exactly the point of the header and there is no offside. If you think there is just even a hint of Nunes being nearer to the goal line than TAA, then you are either being deliberately awkward, or you are registered blind.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Only because the blind **** looking at it didn’t ‘see’ it.

And that’s what will forever happen without VAR

 

[inchy14]

And that’s what will forever happen without VAR

You can’t keep using the ones they get right to defend the ones they get wrong. With VAR ALL decisions should be correct, they’re not because it’s open to interpretation. If they allowed us to hear the discussion going on then at least we could get a reason as to why they may get some wrong. The fact they don’t allow this, and god knows why not, fuels the conspiracy theories even more.

And I’ve only just found out about different amounts of cameras allowed at grounds making it all even more farcical. It’s a shambles in its current for at, refs are T making clear cut decisions as they’re waiting to get bailed out and after 3 seasons (?) it’s still making shit calls. Time to reset it all and start it again.

 

[BlueHammer85]

You can’t keep using the ones they get right to defend the ones they get wrong. With VAR ALL decisions should be correct, they’re not because it’s open to interpretation. If they allowed us to hear the discussion going on then at least we could get a reason as to why they may get some wrong. The fact they don’t allow this, and god knows why not, fuels the conspiracy theories even more.

And I’ve only just found out about different amounts of cameras allowed at grounds making it all even more farcical. It’s a shambles in its current for at, refs are T making clear cut decisions as they’re waiting to get bailed out and after 3 seasons (?) it’s still making shit calls. Time to reset it all and start it again.

You’re never going to get a system that gets every decision correct - it’s not going to happen

You can get a system that reduces the amount of wrong decisions and season by season adapting ways to improve - which it has done

Vast majority of games nowadays are not overshadowed by refs decisions - what we have is an odd bad/fuck up with VAR and a massive overblown reaction whilst forgetting the many many VAR correct overturns.

All for more transparency and to hear officials - this wont squash conspiracies in my opinion - but happy to give it a shot and they are looking into doing this - https://fanbanter.co.uk/major-chang...at-premier-league-fans-have-been-calling-for/

Watch that United v City match posted where Utd didn’t get a red card and tell me it wasn’t a shambles before ?
It’s far less of a shambles now - this thread will be silent for a couple weeks until there’s an odd controversy and we’ll have pages and pages of debate which makes it seem like football has imploded because of VAR - it’s far from perfect and needs to be implemented better but still an improvement than before imo.

 

[bluenova]

I'll do a short reply if it's easier.

Watch yet another clip.



Alexander-Arnold is not moving at pace. Neither is Nunez. Freeze the clip at exactly the point of the header and there is no offside. If you think there is just even a hint of Nunes being nearer to the goal line than TAA, then you are either being deliberately awkward, or you are registered blind.

I am saying that it's a close decision and not surprising that assistants get them wrong a lot of the time. Pick the frame you think is perfect, then move back 3 frames and see how far everyone has moved. 3 frames is just a little more than a tenth of second. For comparison, if you moved within that time in a running race you'd get a false start as it's not considered possible for a human to react so quickly.

With three different elements 40 yards apart, all moving in different directions, and an assistant who is trying to move out first, then check back with the advancing players, it's almost impossible to accurately flag those decisions - hence why VAR is constantly overturning off/onsides.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

You’re never going to get a system that gets every decision correct - it’s not going to happen

You can get a system that reduces the amount of wrong decisions and season by season adapting ways to improve - which it has done

Vast majority of games nowadays are not overshadowed by refs decisions - what we have is an odd bad/fuck up with VAR and a massive overblown reaction whilst forgetting the many many VAR correct overturns.

All for more transparency and to hear officials - this wont squash conspiracies in my opinion - but happy to give it a shot and they are looking into doing this - https://fanbanter.co.uk/major-chang...at-premier-league-fans-have-been-calling-for/

Watch that United v City match posted where Utd didn’t get a red card and tell me it wasn’t a shambles before ?
It’s far less of a shambles now - this thread will be silent for a couple weeks until there’s an odd controversy and we’ll have pages and pages of debate which makes it seem like football has imploded because of VAR - it’s far from perfect and needs to be implemented better but still an improvement than before imo.

VAR has taken away SOME of the poor decisions/missed challenges and offside decisions, but what VAR hasn't improved in any way, shape or form is the accountability for the numerous decisions the officials STILL GET WRONG.

 

[SebastianBlue]

You’re never going to get a system that gets every decision correct - it’s not going to happen

You can get a system that reduces the amount of wrong decisions and season by season adapting ways to improve - which it has done

Vast majority of games nowadays are not overshadowed by refs decisions - what we have is an odd bad/fuck up with VAR and a massive overblown reaction whilst forgetting the many many VAR correct overturns.

All for more transparency and to hear officials - this wont squash conspiracies in my opinion - but happy to give it a shot and they are looking into doing this - https://fanbanter.co.uk/major-chang...at-premier-league-fans-have-been-calling-for/

Watch that United v City match posted where Utd didn’t get a red card and tell me it wasn’t a shambles before ?
It’s far less of a shambles now - this thread will be silent for a couple weeks until there’s an odd controversy and we’ll have pages and pages of debate which makes it seem like football has imploded because of VAR - it’s far from perfect and needs to be implemented better but still an improvement than before imo.

I think his point is that the current implementation of VAR allows for far more inconsistency and opportunity for manipulation than should be the case.

In many cases, it is literally unnecessary. In a few instances, it is actually more difficult to maintain the failings than to correct them.

That in of itself is very suspect.