VAR thread 2022/23

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Had radio on at the weekend in the car, think radio 5, and the commentator said something along the lines of we have 90 seconds left but there will be a minimum of three minutes added on at the end.

How the fuck does a commentator know how long is left before the board is put up. Presumably the ref will, via the comms, tell the 4th official how many minutes to show near the end of the half so does the radio commentators have some sort of feed from somewhere? Forget the fact that they just make up the added time and it normally bears no relevance to how long should be added. Ref in the Leeds game last night blew up about seven seconds before the minimum time that should have been added just as Leeds were about to launch it. What's that about?

If there had been 6 substitution windows, that would mean at least 3 minutes.

6 goals? 3 minutes.

6 yellow cards? 3 minutes.

3 goals and 3 subs? 3 minutes.

Not everything has to be a conspiracy theory. It could just be a commentator being able to add up to 6 and divide by 2.

 

[Eds]

If there had been 6 substitution windows, that would mean at least 3 minutes.

6 goals? 3 minutes.

6 yellow cards? 3 minutes.

3 goals and 3 subs? 3 minutes.

Not everything has to be a conspiracy theory. It could just be a commentator being able to add up to 6 and divide by 2.

Not saying it's a conspiracy, the point is that he knew 90 seconds before the end how many additional minutes were going to be added. And we all know that it's irrelevant how many goals were scored, subs made etc, the refs make it up. Think against Bournemouth the ref added three minutes despite eight subs, a goal and a two minute water break.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Not saying it's a conspiracy, the point is that he knew 90 seconds before the end how many additional minutes were going to be added. And we all know that it's irrelevant how many goals were scored, subs made etc, the refs make it up. Think against Bournemouth the ref added three minutes despite eight subs, a goal and a two minute water break.

But he didn’t. You suggested he thought there would be a minimum of 3 minutes. He can think that because of 6 things happening in the second half.

It might well have turned out to be more than 3 minutes.

When games are well and truly over, referees often play less injury time than they should. Some might argue that more time should be played as GD might be important etc, but the reality is that neither club would want more time to be played in that scenario.

 

[SebastianBlue]

They haven’t though. It could be far, far worse.

The vast majority of football fans think the game is corrupt and against their own team. We are no different.

If I believed that the game was manufacturing results, I’d never watch another game again, ever.

I am not sure how you could argue they have not implemented VAR—especially given the recent changes—to be as opaque as it could possibly be without raising more suspicion (and scrutiny) then they could manage. Anything “worse”, as you say, would expose the corruption, as it would be so far outside of the global norm as to be too obvious.

And it’s not manufactured results, it’s attempting to manipulate outcomes (not always successfully).

The most direct way in which the league are able to do that is via officiating, scheduling, and rules enforcement, all of which they have used to advantage their cash cows (especially over the last 3 years) at the expense of the lesser entities within the league. It’s not done to be dastardly villains, it’s done to “protect” the enterprise—specifically, to ensure the clubs that bring in the most revenue globally remain relevant (at least until other clubs can grow sufficiently to replace the revenue). Though, at times, some of the manipulation does occur based on higher level tribalism, infighting, and racism/xenophobia (these are humans we are talking about, after all).

I also have a hard time believing you, of all people, would be so naive as to believe the Premier League is the only major sport league in the world with no systemic corruption? Even in the face of accounts of former officials and players regarding the corruption we are discussing?

Do you genuinely believe that VAR (and officiating more generally) is completely above board and is never used to attempt to manipulate match outcomes? That the Premier League is the most pure sport competition in the history of the world?

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

I am not sure how you could argue they have not implemented VAR—especially given the recent changes—to be as opaque as it could possibly be without raising more suspicion (and scrutiny) then they could manage. Anything “worse”, as you say, would expose the corruption, as it would be so far outside of the global norm as to be too obvious.

And it’s not manufactured results, it’s attempting to manipulate outcomes (not always successfully).

The most direct way in which the league are able to do that is via officiating, scheduling, and rules enforcement, all of which they have used to advantage their cash cows (especially over the last 3 years) at the expense of the lesser entities within the league. It’s not done to be dastardly villains, it’s done to “protect” the enterprise—specifically, to ensure the clubs that bring in the most revenue globally remain relevant (at least until other clubs can grow sufficiently to replace the revenue). Though, at times, some of the manipulation does occur based on higher level tribalism, infighting, and racism/xenophobia (these are humans we are talking about, after all).

I also have a hard time believing you, of all people, would be so naive is to believe the Premier League is the only major sport league in the world with no systemic corruption? Even in the face of accounts of former officials and players regarding the corruption we are discussing?

Do you genuinely believe that VAR (and officiating more generally) is completely above board, is never used to attempt to manipulate match outcomes?

I believe VAR makes each decision based on the facts as they see them. There is no evidence to suggest they have been told to make certain decisions or manipulate results.

The system makes mistakes as it is controlled by humans.

For every Rashford toenail, there’s a Rodri handball. We tend to remember the decisions that go against us far more than ones that go in our favour.

What VAR does is stop the onfield referee blatantly manipulating a game (Mike Riley in the rags vs Arsenal game springs to mind) as much as they used to be able to do.

Each sporting product tries to maximise its financial capabilities. That’s why it exists.

What needs to change in VAR is the terminology, communication and the interpretation of certain laws.

The handball rule needs changing/simplifying.

The high bar/clear and obvious tag needs binning. If the VAR ref disagrees with the onfield ref, there’s no reason why they couldn’t look at it again and we hear the conversation as to why they are debating it.

Offside is factual. All that could be changed is the margin of error. Wherever that is set, there will always be marginal calls. Hopefully the semi-automation of it makes it even more clear for fans.

I’m not naïve enough to think there isn’t all sorts of murky stuff going on in football. PEDSs, backhanders etc will be rife.

I don’t think that the referees are trying to manipulate who wins though. Whether they have unconscious bias or not is unknown, but possible.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

I believe VAR makes each decision based on the facts as they see them. There is no evidence to suggest they have been told to make certain decisions or manipulate results.

The system makes mistakes as it is controlled by humans.

For every Rashford toenail, there’s a Rodri handball. We tend to remember the decisions that go against us far more than ones that go in our favour.

What VAR does is stop the onfield referee blatantly manipulating a game (Mike Riley in the rags vs Arsenal game springs to mind) as much as they used to be able to do.

Each sporting product tries to maximise its financial capabilities. That’s why it exists.

What needs to change in VAR is the terminology, communication and the interpretation of certain laws.

The handball rule needs changing/simplifying.

The high bar/clear and obvious tag needs binning. If the VAR ref disagrees with the onfield ref, there’s no reason why they couldn’t look at it again and we hear the conversation as to why they are debating it.

Offside is factual. All that could be changed is the margin of error. Wherever that is set, there will always be marginal calls. Hopefully the semi-automation of it makes it even more clear for fans.

I’m not naïve enough to think there isn’t all sorts of murky stuff going on in football. PEDSs, backhanders etc will be rife.

I don’t think that the referees are trying to manipulate who wins though. Whether they have unconscious bias or not is unknown, but possible.

In many corruption/spying scandals perpetrators often play the long game. Social engineering plays a big part in this, and it will be deep and far reaching. They will pull on multiple threads to gain any small advantage, and once they have their in they will manipulate the situation without making it obvious.

I believe corruption is happening in football at the highest levels, but it's hard to say what degree. I'm also not 100% convinced on the motivations. Money, obviously but to what end? I think betting (legal & illegal markets) has to feature quite heavily. Not sure about about other individuals or organisations (such as higher TV revenues due to close title races, or the more popular teams competing for the title) benefiting from corruption.

 

[bluenova]

Not saying it's a conspiracy, the point is that he knew 90 seconds before the end how many additional minutes were going to be added. And we all know that it's irrelevant how many goals were scored, subs made etc, the refs make it up. Think against Bournemouth the ref added three minutes despite eight subs, a goal and a two minute water break.

I don't know how it happens, and can't find a definite answer, but it happens all the time. Commentators often say "we're hearing there will be at least 5 minutes added on".

It could well be passed on directly to the broadcaster so they know how long before ad breaks etc., or the 4th official is told by the ref, and then the broadcast team ask them. Don't Sky have someone like Geoff Shreeves down by the touchline to ask questions and watch what's happening?

I agree about the timing - it's definitely sloppy, particularly when it's based around the 1m extra at half time, and 3m extra at full time. Almost never less then 3, unless someone is being thrashed.

 

[Eds]

But he didn’t. You suggested he thought there would be a minimum of 3 minutes. He can think that because of 6 things happening in the second half.

It might well have turned out to be more than 3 minutes.

When games are well and truly over, referees often play less injury time than they should. Some might argue that more time should be played as GD might be important etc, but the reality is that neither club would want more time to be played in that scenario.

No. I said he knew there would be three minutes, it wasn't a guess

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

No. I said he knew there would be three minutes, it wasn't a guess

Had radio on at the weekend in the car, think radio 5, and the commentator said something along the lines of we have 90 seconds left but there will be a minimum of three minutes added on at the end.

This is what you said.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

I don't know how it happens, and can't find a definite answer, but it happens all the time. Commentators often say "we're hearing there will be at least 5 minutes added on".

It could well be passed on directly to the broadcaster so they know how long before ad breaks etc., or the 4th official is told by the ref, and then the broadcast team ask them. Don't Sky have someone like Geoff Shreeves down by the touchline to ask questions and watch what's happening?

I agree about the timing - it's definitely sloppy, particularly when it's based around the 1m extra at half time, and 3m extra at full time. Almost never less then 3, unless someone is being thrashed.

It’ll be Shreeves asking the 4th official.