Vat on Independent school fees?

[pirate]

It isn't about compensating the teachers, it is about compensating the state. Many of the teachers that are currently employed in private schools today, went to Uni and teacher training when this country took the view that keeping further education free was an investment in the nation's future, and not - as today - as a means to ensure kids from poorer backgrounds start their working lives saddled with £30-£60k debt before they've even begun. All whilst the Universities are becoming richer and richer on the backs of the poorest.
Also if a private school takes a teacher from the state sector who has 20 years experience they are in effect taking a good teacher (presumably) from a state school, 'cherry picking' if you like, at zero cost to themselves. That teacher has built up 20 years classroom experience at state school level, at a significant cost to the state. In my view, if a private school then 'poaches' him/her, they should pay a 'transfer fee' to the LEA equal to that teacher's entire earnings whilst he/she was employed by the state. Adjusted for inflation obviously on top. Either that. or employ NQT's direct from University and pay to give them that vital experience themselves.

I'm sick of watching these benefit whores sponging off the state. It has to stop. They need to pay their way and if they are unable to, then little Oscar or Jemima will just have to go to the local state school. I guarantee that within a year of a few dozen entitled parents in each local authority catchment area sending their kids to state school pressure will be put on the government to finally invest in state schools properly. Currently the poorest in society are subsidising wealthy spongers and that has to stop.
Same principal with private healthcare. Raise VAT on private health fees to 100% and make it a legal requirement for private health companies to re-imburse the NHS in full for the cost of the experience thair employees gained at the expense of tax payers.

Dirty, filthy, benefit spongers.

I agree with everything you post except the bit about universities getting richer.
they really are not
they are getting poorer if they are outside of the Russell group.
The Tories over the last 14 years have changed the funding model reducing the amount of money the universities get directly from central government grants and relying on increase tuition fees to fill the gap. The tuition fees even with all the increases does not fill the gap and so the universities are getting poorer.

The Russell group universities are the big fish in the pond and have increased external funding to make up the shortfall. They are able to do this based on historical reputation and longevity. They are also now more willing to make compromises that they otherwise would not make and in the long run may be harmful to both students and institution.
For example Cambridge have renamed the chemistry department the Yusuf Hamied Chemistry Department. Now Yusuf Hamied seems an OK bloke but it is an unprecedented move and opens the door to more unscrupulous people buying their way into the british educational establishment.

 

[threespires]

I don’t know enough about the subject to comment on the charitable status part, and there may be bona fide reasons for that, and certainly I can see why bringing the profit motive further into the equation could possibly be a bad thing, but that doesn’t alter the fact that the exemption from VAT is completely unjustifiable, given, as you’ve said, the manifest advantage such an education is likely to confer.

At the risk of being a boring fucker the bloke I mentioned above wrote about the dynamics of power and specifically about how economic, social and cultural capital interoperate. Whether you agree with him or not I think every person standing for public office should (amongst other things) be familiar with his work. It would in part allow us to frame an intelligent debate about what type of society we wanted instead of the sub-teletubby shit we allow our politicians to get away with spouting these days.

 

[hilts]

As predicted - does anyone not think that there should be a tax for those paying for independent schools and reducing the burden on the state?

No

 

[hilts]

Let’s make all education of a good enough quality that independent schools are only a choice of not raising your children, yourself.

Good luck with the funding and having to put up with little 'he's just a bit lively' Johnny

 

[Fred_Quimby]

I agree with everything you post except the bit about universities getting richer.
they really are not
they are getting poorer if they are outside of the Russell group.
The Tories over the last 14 years have changed the funding model reducing the amount of money the universities get directly from central government grants and relying on increase tuition fees to fill the gap. The tuition fees even with all the increases does not fill the gap and so the universities are getting poorer.

The Russell group universities are the big fish in the pond and have increased external funding to make up the shortfall. They are able to do this based on historical reputation and longevity. They are also now more willing to make compromises that they otherwise would not make and in the long run may be harmful to both students and institution.
For example Cambridge have renamed the chemistry department the Yusuf Hamied Chemistry Department. Now Yusuf Hamied seems an OK bloke but it is an unprecedented move and opens the door to more unscrupulous people buying their way into the british educational establishment.

Universities are getting poorer. They are not able to increase the cost to UK nationals so they are ‘importing’ more foreign students (as they pay more) but they are bringing over families and this is increasing immigration so now the government are stopping this so the number is dropping and the universities have less income and increasing costs. I am sure this government has a plan to cover the shortfall; haven’t they??

 

[metalblue]

I wonder if VAT would balance out the additional cost of state provision for those whose parents could no longer afford private school fees. Not everyone who sends their kids to private schools are loaded. Some make huge sacrifices and this could make the difference for them. Could end up being a false economy.

Most aren’t loaded. Sent 2 of mine to private school (because our local state school was in the bottom 10% of the country on basics like English). My elder 2 went to this school and it was becoming a fucking shambles. Fortunately my younger 2 have an age difference that meant as one left the other started else I’d never have been able to afford. Yes, I felt bad for those who had no choice but to send their kids to said state school - I certainly had no wish to spend the money but you want to do right by your kids.

Adding VAT won’t affect the wealthy - they’ll just pre pay before the new rules come in. It’ll effect those who go without holidays and the such and pay each month on direct debit.

Personally I think school fees should be payable ahead of tax - the government can use salary sacrifice schemes (and they can then add VAT) this will actually have those paying from wealth paying more and those paying from income, paying less - this in turn makes private education more accessible to more families which in turn frees up more places at state schools

State schools should also stop treating every kid like an academic and teach them practical courses like plumbing, welding, electrics, and mechanics - teach them English and maths in the context of preparing quotes and accounting. Give them the skills to setup a business. Give them financial support to do so. Keep them in education until they are 18. If they meet targets they are taught to drive. If they pass everything you give them a grant to buy a van and some tools if they want to setup their own business. Then the moment they walk out of education they are contributing back to society. The kids who fuck around in school are the ones who aren’t engaged - they’ve no interest in learning French or geography. Give them a reason to be engaged, give them hope. This will break the cycle of families with no ambition and no hope becoming generations on the dole or ne’er do goods.

 

[metalblue]

Let’s make all education of a good enough quality that independent schools are only a choice of not raising your children, yourself.

Pretty sure I raised my kids myself. Fuck sort of comment is that?

 

[metalblue]

Since when is a business that charges £40,000 per annum, per user, a charity?
Since when does the purchase of luxury goods or services not include VAT?

£40k a year? I paid £14k. Since when is education a luxury good?

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Diane Abbot and Keir Starmer are appalled at the notion of VAT on independent school fees.

 

[Kazzydeyna]

But you're not though, are you? You said that they should be 'compensated' to the tune of their full salary for their entire career plus interest. That was your definition of 'proper' compensation. Basically the private school shouldn't just pay compensation, they should pay their entire salary for their whole career to date, as if the state sector hasn't had 20 years of quality teaching for their money.

You're acting like teaching is some sort of extended apprenticeship scheme where they're not only getting paid 35 grand a year, but also getting another 35 grand in 'value' from the experience of being there. Although the person with 10 years experience doing exactly the same job and attending the same training sessions is somehow getting 45 grand of value from it. You've proposed a system where a teacher with 20 years experience would have something approaching an 800 grand buyout if they wanted to go into the private sector. What is that if not handcuffing them to the job? You're basically forcing a career change for anyone who wants to leave state teaching (unless you'd also want compensation if they also went to work for a private publisher writing materials). It's the most anti-worker thing I've ever heard.

And while we're on it, is the UK going to 'compensate' India and the Philippines for all of the doctors and nurses they take every year?

If you want to see private schools banned, just say that. They do it in Finland. But then you'd probably see a similar exodus to international schools or schools in America or Australia.

Charitable status absolutely should disappear. They're in no way charities. VAT is another question, because obviously private education is a luxury, but equally, we don't typically levy VAT on any educational product, AFAIK. If I came to the UK to study English in a language school, that would be a luxury that many of my peers couldn't afford, and would be provided by a profit-making school, but it wouldn't attract VAT because educational products and training courses typically don't.

We’re not going to agree and that’s fine, it’s what makes this place such a great forum.
I don’t think the individual teacher should be compensated, (they already are being by moving jobs to a, presumably, higher paid/better benefits job) but I think the local authority who employed them and helped them gain the experience the private school is now purchasing, should be.
If it’s any consolation, I’m very well aware that my idea would never come to fruition as no party currently has the chops to even say the idea out loud, much less enact it.
All my idea would do would be to effectively force private schools to build their own experience base on their teaching staff at their own expense instead of poaching it, ready made, from the already overstretched and under resourced state sector.
As I said, it will never come to pass as there isn’t the political will (I’d say “political courage”) to make it happen.
We can dream though. Who’d have though 20 years ago that City would change the entire English game and end up as treble winners?