Vat on Independent school fees?

[west didsblue]

Most aren’t loaded. Sent 2 of mine to private school (because our local state school was in the bottom 10% of the country on basics like English). My elder 2 went to this school and it was becoming a fucking shambles. Fortunately my younger 2 have an age difference that meant as one left the other started else I’d never have been able to afford. Yes, I felt bad for those who had no choice but to send their kids to said state school - I certainly had no wish to spend the money but you want to do right by your kids.

Adding VAT won’t affect the wealthy - they’ll just pre pay before the new rules come in. It’ll effect those who go without holidays and the such and pay each month on direct debit.

Personally I think school fees should be payable ahead of tax - the government can use salary sacrifice schemes (and they can then add VAT) this will actually have those paying from wealth paying more and those paying from income, paying less - this in turn makes private education more accessible to more families which in turn frees up more places at state schools

State schools should also stop treating every kid like an academic and teach them practical courses like plumbing, welding, electrics, and mechanics - teach them English and maths in the context of preparing quotes and accounting. Give them the skills to setup a business. Give them financial support to do so. Keep them in education until they are 18. If they meet targets they are taught to drive. If they pass everything you give them a grant to buy a van and some tools if they want to setup their own business. Then the moment they walk out of education they are contributing back to society. The kids who fuck around in school are the ones who aren’t engaged - they’ve no interest in learning French or geography. Give them a reason to be engaged, give them hope. This will break the cycle of families with no ambition and no hope becoming generations on the dole or ne’er do goods.

Some good points in there, although I’d say the last paragraph applies to all schools not just state ones. State schools also need to provide a good education for the more academically gifted which would negate the need for struggling parents to send their kids private.
In an ideal world we’d have a state education and health system that provides quality provision for everyone but we’re never going to get there so there’s always going to be a demand for private, and putting it out of reach for all but the wealthiest isn’t going to improve standards in the state sector. It’s actually going to stretch the state sector further.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

I agree with everything you post except the bit about universities getting richer.
they really are not
they are getting poorer if they are outside of the Russell group.
The Tories over the last 14 years have changed the funding model reducing the amount of money the universities get directly from central government grants and relying on increase tuition fees to fill the gap. The tuition fees even with all the increases does not fill the gap and so the universities are getting poorer.

The Russell group universities are the big fish in the pond and have increased external funding to make up the shortfall. They are able to do this based on historical reputation and longevity. They are also now more willing to make compromises that they otherwise would not make and in the long run may be harmful to both students and institution.
For example Cambridge have renamed the chemistry department the Yusuf Hamied Chemistry Department. Now Yusuf Hamied seems an OK bloke but it is an unprecedented move and opens the door to more unscrupulous people buying their way into the british educational establishment.

Universities, including Russell group are so desperate for foreign students they are letting them in with grades like a C and a D where a Home student would need 3 As. There are even examples of some letting in foreign students with GCSEs only. Durham is £90 million short this year because off the calamitous drop off of foreign students from countries like Nigeria. The Times did and expose over the last couple of weeks.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

£40k a year? I paid £14k. Since when is education a luxury good?

The average cost of an independent day school nationally was £20,480 in 2023.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

You’re the biggest snob on here, by a quite a distance actually.

 

[Ashton Moss Messi]

We need a more thorough tax reform policy.
Organisations that call themselves charities but are more like low-profit entities eg care businesses, and those that technically/ legally are charities such as public schools, are ripe for a proper re-evaluation of what we expect from a charity.
VAT reform is an easy policy to communicate, as per public school fees, but could or should be part of wider and deeper tax reform.

Schools "qualify" as charities because they provide support for "the poor"
For reference, Manchester Grammar...

Fees for the year 2023/24 are £15,180 per year, or £5,060 per term.
Thanks to the generosity of our donors, since 1998 we have spent £25 million funding life-changing bursary places for more than 600 bright boys, who might otherwise have missed out on a first-class education because of their financial circumstances.

so that's 600 in 25 years, about 24 per year
The £25m for 600 boys is about £42k per boy over a typical 7 years school life.
There are currently c1,600 kids enrolled at say £15k average, that's £24M per year
£1m going to bursaries.
1/24 or about 4% going to save/avoid VAT of about 20%.

And, as a further reference, Eton awards about 14 King's Scholarships per year at the £50k/year school.
One of the well-know King's Scholars is a certain scruffy blonde haired narcissist ex-Prime Minister.
One of 19 ex-Eton PMs.

 

[bluenova]

£40k a year? I paid £14k. Since when is education a luxury good?

I'm not sure that having £14k of after tax income available to spend on school fees, is compatible with saying that "most [parents who send kids to private school] aren't loaded".

I realise that people on high incomes, often don't feel well off, but to even have the choice of spending that kind of money on a child's education is way beyond most UK households.

 

[Brewster's millions]

Are there many middle class parents who aspire for their children to become plumbers?

Probably depends on what their children wanted to do, although not many kids want to be plumbers because at the moment society encourages them to go to university, regardless of whether it’s actually going to be worthwhile.

 

[west didsblue]

The average cost of an independent day school nationally was £20,480 in 2023.

Manchester Grammar, Withington Girls and Manchester High are all around £15k which I suspect is the median. The average will be dragged up by the likes of Eton and all the posh schools that charge £40k a year. Maybe they should just stick VAT on those because anyone who can afford £40k a year isn’t going to miss another £8k.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Probably depends on what their children wanted to do, although not many kids want to be plumbers because at the moment society encourages them to go to university, regardless of whether it’s actually going to be worthwhile.

Not sure the first part is going to be correct to any meaningful extent but don’t disagree with your general view on university - and there’s certainly fuck all wrong with being a plumber, which is suitably well rewarded these days for what is, at times, an unpleasant job.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Manchester Grammar, Withington Girls and Manchester High are all around £15k which I suspect is the median. The average will be dragged up by the likes of Eton and all the posh schools that charge £40k a year. Maybe they should just stick VAT on those because anyone who can afford £40k a year isn’t going to miss another £8k.

I think the three local ones you’ve listed, by any objective measure, are posh.