Vienna Shooting

More from Neumann:

'...a religion which has existed for more than 1400 years - and now has more than 1.5 billion followers - cannot be sweepingly accused of being prone to violence. I would not argue that the new jihadists have nothing at all to do with Islam, but it would be just as false to present their extreme interpretation as the sole, true version of the faith, as many so-called critics of Islam are now doing.

Anyone who reads this book through to the end will understand that the target audience from whom the new jihadists do their recruiting is not 'Muslims'; it is a shrill but numerically tiny minority: the Salafists. The 'average Muslim' is as unreachable for the jihadists as the 'average German' is for violent neo Nazis.' (P5).

Elsewhere, he writes, 'It is hard to say to what degree... the overall philosophy of the Islamic State can be described as 'Islamic', because Sunni Islam has neither a Pope nor any other absolute authority who can rule on matters of belief. To assert that the Islamic State has nothing to do with Islam is well-intentioned but misleading. Its members consider themselves Muslims and draw on the same sources referred to by the majority of (non-extremist) Muslims...But for all that, it is wrong to lump together the Islam of the Islamic State with the Islam that is practised by hundreds of millions of (deeply observant) Muslims. Not only because there is no such thing as a single, supposedly 'true' Islam, but also because the Islamic State's interpretations are considered extreme even by the standards of the jihadist spectrum. If even al-Qaeda brands the Islamic State an apocalyptic sect, it is obvious just how far outside the theological mainstream the group is operating.' (P.69)

‘The milieu that will be in the forefront of the security service’s minds… is the Salafist counterculture. It is the social and ideological incubator for the jihadists who join al-Qaeda and the Islamic State. It can be found on- and offline, in universities, prisons, radical mosques, Islam seminars, community centres and town centres. In Europe, it now has tens of thousands of supporters – and gains more every day.

As in other countercultures, there are different groups and tendencies among the Salafists; not all lean towards violence, but for some it is the last stop before going over to outright terrorism. The security services’ task is to watch the supporters and understand how the scene works, who exercises influence within it and which members are dangerous or potentially violent. It is just as important for them to win over informants and deploy them so that the ‘dangerous’ among the Salafists lose influence within the counterculture itself. Repressive tactics directed against the scene as a whole strengthen the ‘dangerous’ position and are therefore usually not only ineffective, but also highly counterproductive.

The same applies to the 99 per cent of European Muslims who are not part of the Salafist scene. To harass or criminalize them on the basis of their religion is illegal and an enormous waste of time, money and resources, which would be better spent on dealing with Salafists.

Of course, deeply problematic views continue to exist within Muslim communities in Europe. Attitudes such as anti-Semitism, antipathy towards democracy and rejection of gender equality must be tackled, but that is down to civil society and politics, not to the security services and least of all to the police. Treating Muslims as potential terrorists and potential candidates for surveillance, which the FBI has done in the past, would do severe damage to our society and squander the opportunity to win them as partners.’ (pages 179/180)

‘Another essential element consists of cooperation with Muslim communities, because they represent the faith that the jihadists claim as their own and cite as their justification. In theory, non-Salafist Muslims provide a counterweight to extremism, embody religious diversity and can reach people to whom the state has no access. But in practice, this cooperation is often very difficult. That is partly because mainstream Muslim communities are just as helpless and clueless about Salafism as the rest of society. Their leaders tend to be old men with no insight into the realities of life for young Muslims and who would rather avoid the controversial questions about identity, drugs and sex that the Salafists actively address. Moreover, they are fed up of politicians and the media holding them responsible for the actions of a small minority and believe that the tone of the media’s reporting on Islam, the Islamic State and terrorism is fomenting a growing Islamaphobia.

This attitude is understandable, at least in part, but these mainstream communities and their associations are making a mistake if they avoid this subject, because extremism is ultimately a threat to them too, and to the millions of Muslims living peacefully in the West. A functioning prevention strategy will need Muslim communities to aggressively and credibly engage with extremists, and the state not to communicate with Muslim citizens only via Homeland Security and ‘security partnerships’, but to truly accept them as fellow citizens and offer them real participation in society.’ (pages 184/185)'
 
Yes they have and now are so its best we dont speak about it on here.

Ridiculous!

Threads keep being banned on here, not sure who’s pushing their own agenda. Pretty pathetic and disrespectful to any European blood spilt over the past 2 weeks.

Pointless trying to discuss this, the religion that must never be named prohibits it.
The thread got pulled last night because I was going to the bed, and the reactions (as usual) were getting more extreme.

By all means discuss these awful incidents sensibly, but as I posted recently, I won’t allow the forum to become a platform for demonising all immigrants and Muslims because of the actions of a minority of extremists. There are other platforms out there for you to espouse those views if you wish to do so, but Bluemoon isn’t the place for it.
 
This is from Olivier Roy's Jihad and Death: The Appeal of Islamic State.

Roy's comments are mainly based on a French database with details on approximately 100 French jihadists.

Here's what he has to say:

'There is no standard terrorist profile but there are recurrent characteristics...that have hardly changed over the past twenty years.'

French homegrown terrorists tend to be second generation, may have been involved in petty crime, tend to get radicalized in prison, originate predominantly from the Maghrebans (or the Indian subcontinent in the case of the UK), and are frequently 'born again' Muslims who have suddenly renewed their religious observance, and shift into action fairly shortly afterwards.

In each 'cell' (if they are not operating as 'Lone Wolves), there is typically at least one actor who was well acquainted with members of a previous network, [and the members] are often siblings or childhood buddies [who see] themselves as being in generational conflict with their parents who they regard as being too passive, and are frequently married and have become fathers in the months preceding their action in order to leave behind 'black widows' and 'lion cubs'.

Then Roy goes on to say this:

'Most radicals are deeply immersed in today's 'youth culture'...they go to nightclubs, pick up girls, smoke and drink...[there are] a surprising number of arrests for drink driving, another sign of their low level of religious observance...Their dress habits are those of today's youth: brands, baseball caps, hoods, in other words streetwear...a beard is no longer a sign of devoutness...They never wear the usual Salafi garb - and it not really to go unnoticed... as they never make a secret of their (re)conversion to Islam.

Their musical tastes are those of the times: they like rap music and go to clubs...[They] are also gaming enthusiasts and are fond of violent American movies such as Brian de Palma's Scarface....kung-fu training rooms and selfies with guns [tend to feature]....There is even a group of jihadi bikers and manga fans in Belgium, the 'Kamikaze Bikers'...some of its members were prosecuted for terrorism....The language spoken by radicals is always that of the country of residence - French, in this case. They often use youth slang and switch to a Salafized version of banlieu talk when they reconvert...Prison time puts them in contact with their radicalized peers....'

'They do not live in a particularly religious environment. Their relationship to the local mosque was ambivalent: either they attended episodically, or they were expelled for having shown disrespect by the local Imam. None of them belonged to the Muslim Brotherhood...none of them had taken part in proselytizing activities, none of them were members of a Palestinian solidarity group....There is no religious movement that radicalized them 'religiously' before they went over to terrorism. If indeed there was religious radicalization, it did not occur in the framework of Salafi mosques, but individually or within the group.'

‘It is very common to view jihadism as an extension of Salafism. Not all Salafis are jihadis, but all jihadis are supposedly Salafis, and so Salafism is the gateway to jihadism. In a word, religious radicalization is considered to be the first stage of political radicalization. But things are more complicated than that….’

Roy goes on to point out that many of the perpetrators of terrorist atrocities are operating outside of the Salafi mainstream, which is typically world-rejecting, apolitical, quietistic and involves a highly regulated lifestyle. The adoption of an intense religiosity may therefore not be a marker of radicalization, as male ISIS converts may not dress in the manner of Salafi men, and continue to live a hedonistic lifestyle right up until the time they go into action.

They therefore see themselves as achieving redemption for their unworthiness through their deaths. Another element in play is the apocalyptic outlook of ISIS (which makes it very different from al-Qaeda). ISIS members in the West believe that they are living in the end times, a point at which strict religious observance becomes irrelevant. They don't need to pray regularly, seek out halal sandwiches, and so on. Apparently, those that make it to Iraq and Syria are then flummoxed by the uber-discipline.

Western ISIS converts also believe that their elevated spiritual status in the afterlife will permit them to intercede for their own relatives. Additionally, although they may use Arabic Salafi terminology in everyday conversation, their knowledge of Islam is typically superficial and none are fluent in the language. For example, in another book I read on ISIS, it was mentioned that two ISIS converts purchased Islam for Dummies from Amazon before departing for Syria.

Got to go. Once again, hope this helps in some way.
 
The thread got pulled last night because I was going to the bed, and the reactions (as usual) were getting more extreme.

By all means discuss these awful incidents sensibly, but as I posted recently, I won’t allow the forum to become a platform for demonising all immigrants and Muslims because of the actions of a minority of extremists. There are other platforms out there for you to espouse those views if you wish to do so, but Bluemoon isn’t the place for it.

That’s not something I saw, or contributed towards, but fair enough.
 
Just time for one last extract.
The following is from Peter Pomerantsev's This is Not Propaganda: Adventures in the War Against Reality.

I am posting this for the benefit of those who may have concerns about the migrancy issue, especially as it relates to Syria and jihadism.

'Mary Ana McGlasson was in Starbucks. She was an American nurse and ran humanitarian medical aid for Syria, based in The Turkish town of Gazientep, a city of one million, where an extra 500,000 Syrians had arrived as refugees. Working first for Relief International, then for Doctors Without Borders, she had spent the last five years coordinating the construction of hospitals that would then be destroyed again. She had just managed to get six months of medical supplies into Aleppo, but as the siege intensified over the summer of 2016 it became clear that was not going to be enough. As she sat in Starbucks she was getting live text and WhatsApp messages from doctors inside Aleppo: 'The bombings have started again...we are operating in the basement...the generator has gone. we are operating by the lights from our mobile phones. '

Her job as a humanitarian worker was to be neutral. To build hospitals, deliver supplies, report on fatalities and war crimes. She relied on there being, beyond her, a system of international norms, ideals, institutions to which she provided the necessary evidence.

After 2015, as Russia began its bombing, Mary Ana and dozens of other humanitarian organisations compiled report after report showing that the attacks were aimed not, as the Russians claimed, at areas held by ISIS, but at Aleppo itself. She still assumed the weight of evidence would mean something. She wrote letters to US congressmen and UN representatives. She had long given up thinking that there would be military intervention, even a safe zone - that moment had passed when the Russians began bombing - but at least more sanctions, an outcry, last-ditch negotiations...Or, more importantly, millions in the streets, protests...Where were they? She knew the politicians would react only if they saw people were upset. Did it not matter any more if a regime gassed its own people? Did that elicit just a shrug?

The WhatsApp messages from Aleppo kept on coming through: 'We have run out of gauze and bandages. The bombs are getting closer.'

She struggled to look Syrians in the eye. They kept coming to her, thinking she had some sort of influence, planting hard drives of evidence in her hands. 'We have been killed by barrel bombs,' they told her. 'We have been killed by sarin gas and by Sukhoi rockets. But what is killing us now is the silence.'

At one moment in May 2016, there was hope: the Security Council of the UN, which included a representative from the Russian Federation, passed a resolution calling for a halt to the bombing of medical centres in Syria. It seemed, suddenly, that all their frenetic report writing had not been entirely in vain.

The resolution was passed on 3 May - but in the following months attacks on medical facilities in Syria increased by 89 per cent. There were 172 attacks between June and December - one every twenty-nine hours.

The medics' messages from Aleppo flashed on her phone. 'Paediatric hospital was targeted today by aircraft. Many fatalities and injuries.'

As the fall of Aleppo became ever more inevitable, Mary Ana's Syrian employees started asking for a months's pay in advance. She knew what they meant: they had given up any hope of going home, were prepared to risk everything on a boat taking them across the Mediterranean to Greece, and from there on the long march through the Balkans to Europe. There were different prices: if you had $10,000 or so, smugglers could take you in a luxury yacht that dropped you on a pleasant beach in the Peloponnese; sometimes as little as a few hundred could get you on a very overcrowded dinghy.

The Syrians she knew in Gazantiep had always thought they would go home. There was the doctor who walked around Gazantiep with the keys to his Aleppo apartment in his pocket, as if expecting to return there at any moment, though he had been away for years. Other refugees in Gazantiep lived in squalor, middle-class families squatting in empty shipping containers, eking out a living cutting shoe leather for local factories, but even they had not moved on from the border town, in the expectation that their time away from home was temporary. Now, with the final bombardment, they were abandoning all hope.

Since 2015 the TV news had been full of stories of boats with refugees capsizing, the bloated corpses of toddlers washing up near sunbathing tourists on the beaches of Greek islands. So refugee families sent their strongest sons, used their last money to get them on the best boats possible, arming them with mobile phones, the most important navigational aid for the journey. But this in turn provoked negative reactions from those watching television in Europe and the US. One could feel sorrow for drowning babies, but instead columns of young Syrian men were marching into Europe.

When Mary Ana spoke to her parents in Arizona, they would ask her why weren't these men fighting? Why did they have mobile phones? Weren't they all terrorists? Her parents were deeply Christian, watched Fox News. She could tell how they were torn between their concern for her and sympathy for her work, and what they were being told on television. Nationalist politicians used shots of the exodus of refugees walking across Europe to fuel the fear of being overrun by foreigners, with one such photo being used on a poster advocating Britain's departure from the EU. 'Breaking Point', it read.

...Mary Ana went on writing the reports, reciting the facts of crimes against humanity, facts that no longer seemed to have any power. On television, Donald Trump was debating Hilary Clinton for the US presidency. He wanted to build a wall; he wanted to stop Muslims coming to America, he said Muslims were terrorists. He made numbers up as he went along; there were thirty million illegal immigrants in America. Clinton would let in 650 million more. No one took his chances seriously. Mary Ana knew different, that many would vote for him back in Arizona. And if facts didn't matter in Aleppo, why would they in the US?'
 
This is from Olivier Roy's Jihad and Death: The Appeal of Islamic State.

Roy's comments are mainly based on a French database with details on approximately 100 French jihadists.

Here's what he has to say:

'There is no standard terrorist profile but there are recurrent characteristics...that have hardly changed over the past twenty years.'

French homegrown terrorists tend to be second generation, may have been involved in petty crime, tend to get radicalized in prison, originate predominantly from the Maghrebans (or the Indian subcontinent in the case of the UK), and are frequently 'born again' Muslims who have suddenly renewed their religious observance, and shift into action fairly shortly afterwards.

In each 'cell' (if they are not operating as 'Lone Wolves), there is typically at least one actor who was well acquainted with members of a previous network, [and the members] are often siblings or childhood buddies [who see] themselves as being in generational conflict with their parents who they regard as being too passive, and are frequently married and have become fathers in the months preceding their action in order to leave behind 'black widows' and 'lion cubs'.

Then Roy goes on to say this:

'Most radicals are deeply immersed in today's 'youth culture'...they go to nightclubs, pick up girls, smoke and drink...[there are] a surprising number of arrests for drink driving, another sign of their low level of religious observance...Their dress habits are those of today's youth: brands, baseball caps, hoods, in other words streetwear...a beard is no longer a sign of devoutness...They never wear the usual Salafi garb - and it not really to go unnoticed... as they never make a secret of their (re)conversion to Islam.

Their musical tastes are those of the times: they like rap music and go to clubs...[They] are also gaming enthusiasts and are fond of violent American movies such as Brian de Palma's Scarface....kung-fu training rooms and selfies with guns [tend to feature]....There is even a group of jihadi bikers and manga fans in Belgium, the 'Kamikaze Bikers'...some of its members were prosecuted for terrorism....The language spoken by radicals is always that of the country of residence - French, in this case. They often use youth slang and switch to a Salafized version of banlieu talk when they reconvert...Prison time puts them in contact with their radicalized peers....'

'They do not live in a particularly religious environment. Their relationship to the local mosque was ambivalent: either they attended episodically, or they were expelled for having shown disrespect by the local Imam. None of them belonged to the Muslim Brotherhood...none of them had taken part in proselytizing activities, none of them were members of a Palestinian solidarity group....There is no religious movement that radicalized them 'religiously' before they went over to terrorism. If indeed there was religious radicalization, it did not occur in the framework of Salafi mosques, but individually or within the group.'

‘It is very common to view jihadism as an extension of Salafism. Not all Salafis are jihadis, but all jihadis are supposedly Salafis, and so Salafism is the gateway to jihadism. In a word, religious radicalization is considered to be the first stage of political radicalization. But things are more complicated than that….’

Roy goes on to point out that many of the perpetrators of terrorist atrocities are operating outside of the Salafi mainstream, which is typically world-rejecting, apolitical, quietistic and involves a highly regulated lifestyle. The adoption of an intense religiosity may therefore not be a marker of radicalization, as male ISIS converts may not dress in the manner of Salafi men, and continue to live a hedonistic lifestyle right up until the time they go into action.

They therefore see themselves as achieving redemption for their unworthiness through their deaths. Another element in play is the apocalyptic outlook of ISIS (which makes it very different from al-Qaeda). ISIS members in the West believe that they are living in the end times, a point at which strict religious observance becomes irrelevant. They don't need to pray regularly, seek out halal sandwiches, and so on. Apparently, those that make it to Iraq and Syria are then flummoxed by the uber-discipline.

Western ISIS converts also believe that their elevated spiritual status in the afterlife will permit them to intercede for their own relatives. Additionally, although they may use Arabic Salafi terminology in everyday conversation, their knowledge of Islam is typically superficial and none are fluent in the language. For example, in another book I read on ISIS, it was mentioned that two ISIS converts purchased Islam for Dummies from Amazon before departing for Syria.

Got to go. Once again, hope this helps in some way.
Thanks Zen, as ever your contributions add so much to any debate.
 
Yes of course.

If we don't learn why these acts are carried out then we will never defeat them. It might be uncomfortable and there will be a lot of home truths that people may not accept, but yes they should be discussed, but discussed without vitriol and prejudgement. Straight away though you consider the whole ideology to be flawed, rather than the terrorists interpretation of the ideology being flawed. By discussing it then we can reason why it happened and continues to happen and maybe one day stop it happening.
Perhaps it was an attack organised by the ISIS right wingers, you know - their equivalent of the Blairites, to discredit and undermine the leadership?
 
The thread got pulled last night because I was going to the bed, and the reactions (as usual) were getting more extreme.

By all means discuss these awful incidents sensibly, but as I posted recently, I won’t allow the forum to become a platform for demonising all immigrants and Muslims because of the actions of a minority of extremists. There are other platforms out there for you to espouse those views if you wish to do so, but Bluemoon isn’t the place for it.
I wasn't involved in the the thread yesterday, but will reiterate the point, and
it won't last, imo. On previous threads, I did not notice the demonising of muslims, but saw plenty of posts criticising the ideology behind these attacks,
and it does appear that this is unacceptable, and so the topic disappears.
So for me, there's no discussion to be had, unfortunately, but for those that want it, well fair enough, it's not up to me.
 

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