Chippy_boy
Well-Known Member
Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
I didn't see that game.
What's your point?
moomba said:
I didn't see that game.
What's your point?
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What's wrong with the Premier League top teams?
- Thread starter Chippy_boy
- Start date
super_city_si
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Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
We don't know how to cheat as effectively. Chelsea are close but went way overboard. Look at last night. Every time a Barcelona player was fouled they exaggerated the contact and screamed and rolled. The ordinary foul looked way worse and more attention was brought to it. Hence we got yellow cards early and often. When we were fouled we didn't make a meal out of it and just got up. The foul looked like a normal foul and no yellow was issued.
I'm not laying blame on the premier league style of play and Im not suggesting we resort to underhand tactics, I'm laying blame on the CL officials who are all too easy to con. The CL has been poor to watch for a few years now (odd games excepted) due to the high level of cheating and diving which no CL referee has had the balls to call it as it is.
Plus we're shitter than the top level Spanish and German teams ;)
We don't know how to cheat as effectively. Chelsea are close but went way overboard. Look at last night. Every time a Barcelona player was fouled they exaggerated the contact and screamed and rolled. The ordinary foul looked way worse and more attention was brought to it. Hence we got yellow cards early and often. When we were fouled we didn't make a meal out of it and just got up. The foul looked like a normal foul and no yellow was issued.
I'm not laying blame on the premier league style of play and Im not suggesting we resort to underhand tactics, I'm laying blame on the CL officials who are all too easy to con. The CL has been poor to watch for a few years now (odd games excepted) due to the high level of cheating and diving which no CL referee has had the balls to call it as it is.
Plus we're shitter than the top level Spanish and German teams ;)
Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
I think people equate getting knocked out with low quality. If Arsenal and Chelsea got through to the quarter finals on away goals instead of getting knocked out on away goals do you really think we would be having these "whats wrong with English football" debates?Chippy_boy said:moomba said:Chippy_boy said:It's not about the stats, it's about watching the teams and just looking at how good or bad they are. I just don't see the quality in the PL right now.
Who did you think looked the better team between Arsenal and Monaco on Tuesday?
I didn't see that game.
What's your point?
Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
I don't actually see a problem with the premier league not being enough more the majority of European teams falling well short of the premier league. In Germany, Bayern in reality will only play maybe 5-8 "games" in a bundesliga season (Dortmund, Schalke, Leverkusen, one other shock team) and for the rest of the season they will face teams who roll over for them and the game is over after 60 minutes. The same in Spain for the big 3 teams and Italy for Juve, maybe Roma, in France its PSG and one of the other 3 who decides to have a good season.
My Point is that there is a lot more rest in these leagues for big teams, plus winter breaks etc. they have a lot more energy saved up for big games. Whereas in the PL teams will be playing physically and mentally demanding games week in week out. Last week City were given a really tough game and defeat to Burnley, Real Madrid wont get the same against Elche, or Bayern against Paderborn, or Juve against Cagliari.
I don't actually see a problem with the premier league not being enough more the majority of European teams falling well short of the premier league. In Germany, Bayern in reality will only play maybe 5-8 "games" in a bundesliga season (Dortmund, Schalke, Leverkusen, one other shock team) and for the rest of the season they will face teams who roll over for them and the game is over after 60 minutes. The same in Spain for the big 3 teams and Italy for Juve, maybe Roma, in France its PSG and one of the other 3 who decides to have a good season.
My Point is that there is a lot more rest in these leagues for big teams, plus winter breaks etc. they have a lot more energy saved up for big games. Whereas in the PL teams will be playing physically and mentally demanding games week in week out. Last week City were given a really tough game and defeat to Burnley, Real Madrid wont get the same against Elche, or Bayern against Paderborn, or Juve against Cagliari.
supercrystal7
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Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
If anything Chelsea's fluke win in 2012 hides just how bad things have been. The performances are just not there in Europe.
As for City you have had hard draws, but why aren't you coming through them? Those groups of death you had were tough for Madrid and Bayern too. Yet they found a way. When Barcelona draw you in the last 16 it is a hard draw for them too, but they have won 4 out of 4. In recent years though it's not just Barcelona, Bayern and Madrid that have been above any English champion, but even the second tier teams in Spain/Germany like Atletico and Dortmund. Dortmund/Atletico/PSG have found their way through tough draws.
If you want a comparison to see how much weaker the Premier League teams got just compare the United CL winning team in 08 with the team that won the league in 2013.
2008 CL winning team
VDS-37
Brown-28
Vidic-26
Ferdinand-29
Evra-27
Scholes-33
Hargreaves-27
Carrick-26
Ronaldo-23
Rooney-22
Tevez-24
2013 Premier League Champions
De Gea-22
Rafael-22
Ferdinand-34
Evans-25
Evra-32
Scholes-38
Carrick-31
Nani-26
Young-27
Rooney-27
RVP-29
Just look at those two first 11's and the decline is obvious. United are the best example, because they let the team get old and still were winning the league. The 2013 team even got more points.
Yes we would, because PSG outplayed Chelsea with 10 men and were the better side. Arsenal would almost certainly have gone out in the next round. Arsenal in recent years have been bettered by Schalke and a injury ravaged Dortmund.moomba said:I think people equate getting knocked out with low quality. If Arsenal and Chelsea got through to the quarter finals on away goals instead of getting knocked out on away goals do you really think we would be having these "whats wrong with English football" debates?
If anything Chelsea's fluke win in 2012 hides just how bad things have been. The performances are just not there in Europe.
As for City you have had hard draws, but why aren't you coming through them? Those groups of death you had were tough for Madrid and Bayern too. Yet they found a way. When Barcelona draw you in the last 16 it is a hard draw for them too, but they have won 4 out of 4. In recent years though it's not just Barcelona, Bayern and Madrid that have been above any English champion, but even the second tier teams in Spain/Germany like Atletico and Dortmund. Dortmund/Atletico/PSG have found their way through tough draws.
If you want a comparison to see how much weaker the Premier League teams got just compare the United CL winning team in 08 with the team that won the league in 2013.
2008 CL winning team
VDS-37
Brown-28
Vidic-26
Ferdinand-29
Evra-27
Scholes-33
Hargreaves-27
Carrick-26
Ronaldo-23
Rooney-22
Tevez-24
2013 Premier League Champions
De Gea-22
Rafael-22
Ferdinand-34
Evans-25
Evra-32
Scholes-38
Carrick-31
Nani-26
Young-27
Rooney-27
RVP-29
Just look at those two first 11's and the decline is obvious. United are the best example, because they let the team get old and still were winning the league. The 2013 team even got more points.
Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
You're talking about the decline of one team, not an entire league.
And that decline has been shown further by their league performances since winning the league.
They also performed better in Europe than domestically last season.
As for our draws Barca, Real and Bayern are the best three teams in Europe. Maybe the world. We're not. Simple as that.
You're talking about the decline of one team, not an entire league.
And that decline has been shown further by their league performances since winning the league.
They also performed better in Europe than domestically last season.
As for our draws Barca, Real and Bayern are the best three teams in Europe. Maybe the world. We're not. Simple as that.
supercrystal7
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Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
If you want we can do the same with the Chelsea side.
Cech
Essien
Terry
Carvalho
Cole
Makelele
Ballack
Lampard
Cole
Malouda
Drogba
compared with now
Courtois
Ivanovic
Terry
Cahill
Cesar
Matic
Fabregas
Oscar
Hazard
Willian
Costa
That Chelsea team did not even win the league. Yet only Hazard and possibly Ivanovic have a shot of getting into the 2008 team. Could go and do the same with Liverpool or Arsenal
EDIT
If 5/6 years ago the English champions and even the English runners up were the best in the world and now they are not it means the league is at the very least relatively in a decline.
That team won the league in 2008 and won the league in 2013. That's the ages the players were of the first 11 at the end of the season.moomba said:Your talking about the decline of one team, not an entire league.
If you want we can do the same with the Chelsea side.
Cech
Essien
Terry
Carvalho
Cole
Makelele
Ballack
Lampard
Cole
Malouda
Drogba
compared with now
Courtois
Ivanovic
Terry
Cahill
Cesar
Matic
Fabregas
Oscar
Hazard
Willian
Costa
That Chelsea team did not even win the league. Yet only Hazard and possibly Ivanovic have a shot of getting into the 2008 team. Could go and do the same with Liverpool or Arsenal
EDIT
If 5/6 years ago the English champions and even the English runners up were the best in the world and now they are not it means the league is at the very least relatively in a decline.
Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
The English teams were never revolutionary in style but between approximately 2005-2010 they had tactical organisation and a strong defensive platform particularly with these CB Partnerships: Rio-Vidic, Terry-Carvalho, Carragher-Hypia, Toure-Campbell.
It says a lot that the best defender in the league this season is an old, slower John Terry.
The English teams were never revolutionary in style but between approximately 2005-2010 they had tactical organisation and a strong defensive platform particularly with these CB Partnerships: Rio-Vidic, Terry-Carvalho, Carragher-Hypia, Toure-Campbell.
It says a lot that the best defender in the league this season is an old, slower John Terry.
supercrystal7
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Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
United probably had one of the weaker midfields, but still had Hargreaves, Scholes, Carrick.
Chelsea had a monstrous midfield with Ballack, Essien, Lampard and Makelele.
Even Liverpool had another monster midfield with Alonso, Mascherano and Gerrard.
Then United had Ronaldo, Liverpool had Torres and Chelsea had Drogba. Only Aguero is in that league.
The only thing this generation has is more flair and creativity in the likes of Silva, Fabregas, Hazard, Sterling, Coutinho, Nasri.
It's not just the defence it's the entire team. English teams never had that much flair then, would say the teams have more flair now, but we can compare the midfields.Falcao said:The English teams were never revolutionary in style but between approximately they had 2005-2010 was tactical organisation and a strong defensive platform particularly with these CB Partnerships: Rio-Vidic, Terry-Carvalho, Carragher-Hypia, Toure-Campbell.
It says a lot that the best defender in the league this season is an old, slower John Terry.
United probably had one of the weaker midfields, but still had Hargreaves, Scholes, Carrick.
Chelsea had a monstrous midfield with Ballack, Essien, Lampard and Makelele.
Even Liverpool had another monster midfield with Alonso, Mascherano and Gerrard.
Then United had Ronaldo, Liverpool had Torres and Chelsea had Drogba. Only Aguero is in that league.
The only thing this generation has is more flair and creativity in the likes of Silva, Fabregas, Hazard, Sterling, Coutinho, Nasri.
Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
I really don't know why you would bother at it doesn't prove a thing.
For a start, the quality of a league isn't just about the performances of the top sides in it.
Secondly, Chelsea are in a development stage, and over the past year or two have been rebuilding a team. Personally I think this one has the potential to be as good as the old one.
IMO there are three teams that are head and shoulders above anyone. I believe that would have been the case had those teams been around in their current formations 5 years ago. The core of one of those teams destroyed England's best team in two finals around 5 years ago.
Beyond that there are maybe a dozen that can win on a given day, and lose on a given day. Chelsea is part of that, Arsenal as well. We;re probably a step back, but we haven't really had a good run at the comp yet.
supercrystal7 said:That team won the league in 2008 and won the league in 2013. That's the ages the players were of the first 11 at the end of the season.moomba said:Your talking about the decline of one team, not an entire league.
If you want we can do the same with the Chelsea side.
I really don't know why you would bother at it doesn't prove a thing.
For a start, the quality of a league isn't just about the performances of the top sides in it.
Secondly, Chelsea are in a development stage, and over the past year or two have been rebuilding a team. Personally I think this one has the potential to be as good as the old one.
IMO there are three teams that are head and shoulders above anyone. I believe that would have been the case had those teams been around in their current formations 5 years ago. The core of one of those teams destroyed England's best team in two finals around 5 years ago.
Beyond that there are maybe a dozen that can win on a given day, and lose on a given day. Chelsea is part of that, Arsenal as well. We;re probably a step back, but we haven't really had a good run at the comp yet.