Chippy_boy
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Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
I didn't see that game.
What's your point?
moomba said:
I didn't see that game.
What's your point?
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What's wrong with the Premier League top teams?
- Thread starter Chippy_boy
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super_city_si
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Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
We don't know how to cheat as effectively. Chelsea are close but went way overboard. Look at last night. Every time a Barcelona player was fouled they exaggerated the contact and screamed and rolled. The ordinary foul looked way worse and more attention was brought to it. Hence we got yellow cards early and often. When we were fouled we didn't make a meal out of it and just got up. The foul looked like a normal foul and no yellow was issued.
I'm not laying blame on the premier league style of play and Im not suggesting we resort to underhand tactics, I'm laying blame on the CL officials who are all too easy to con. The CL has been poor to watch for a few years now (odd games excepted) due to the high level of cheating and diving which no CL referee has had the balls to call it as it is.
Plus we're shitter than the top level Spanish and German teams ;)
We don't know how to cheat as effectively. Chelsea are close but went way overboard. Look at last night. Every time a Barcelona player was fouled they exaggerated the contact and screamed and rolled. The ordinary foul looked way worse and more attention was brought to it. Hence we got yellow cards early and often. When we were fouled we didn't make a meal out of it and just got up. The foul looked like a normal foul and no yellow was issued.
I'm not laying blame on the premier league style of play and Im not suggesting we resort to underhand tactics, I'm laying blame on the CL officials who are all too easy to con. The CL has been poor to watch for a few years now (odd games excepted) due to the high level of cheating and diving which no CL referee has had the balls to call it as it is.
Plus we're shitter than the top level Spanish and German teams ;)
Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
I think people equate getting knocked out with low quality. If Arsenal and Chelsea got through to the quarter finals on away goals instead of getting knocked out on away goals do you really think we would be having these "whats wrong with English football" debates?Chippy_boy said:moomba said:Chippy_boy said:It's not about the stats, it's about watching the teams and just looking at how good or bad they are. I just don't see the quality in the PL right now.
Who did you think looked the better team between Arsenal and Monaco on Tuesday?
I didn't see that game.
What's your point?
Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
I don't actually see a problem with the premier league not being enough more the majority of European teams falling well short of the premier league. In Germany, Bayern in reality will only play maybe 5-8 "games" in a bundesliga season (Dortmund, Schalke, Leverkusen, one other shock team) and for the rest of the season they will face teams who roll over for them and the game is over after 60 minutes. The same in Spain for the big 3 teams and Italy for Juve, maybe Roma, in France its PSG and one of the other 3 who decides to have a good season.
My Point is that there is a lot more rest in these leagues for big teams, plus winter breaks etc. they have a lot more energy saved up for big games. Whereas in the PL teams will be playing physically and mentally demanding games week in week out. Last week City were given a really tough game and defeat to Burnley, Real Madrid wont get the same against Elche, or Bayern against Paderborn, or Juve against Cagliari.
I don't actually see a problem with the premier league not being enough more the majority of European teams falling well short of the premier league. In Germany, Bayern in reality will only play maybe 5-8 "games" in a bundesliga season (Dortmund, Schalke, Leverkusen, one other shock team) and for the rest of the season they will face teams who roll over for them and the game is over after 60 minutes. The same in Spain for the big 3 teams and Italy for Juve, maybe Roma, in France its PSG and one of the other 3 who decides to have a good season.
My Point is that there is a lot more rest in these leagues for big teams, plus winter breaks etc. they have a lot more energy saved up for big games. Whereas in the PL teams will be playing physically and mentally demanding games week in week out. Last week City were given a really tough game and defeat to Burnley, Real Madrid wont get the same against Elche, or Bayern against Paderborn, or Juve against Cagliari.
supercrystal7
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Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
If anything Chelsea's fluke win in 2012 hides just how bad things have been. The performances are just not there in Europe.
As for City you have had hard draws, but why aren't you coming through them? Those groups of death you had were tough for Madrid and Bayern too. Yet they found a way. When Barcelona draw you in the last 16 it is a hard draw for them too, but they have won 4 out of 4. In recent years though it's not just Barcelona, Bayern and Madrid that have been above any English champion, but even the second tier teams in Spain/Germany like Atletico and Dortmund. Dortmund/Atletico/PSG have found their way through tough draws.
If you want a comparison to see how much weaker the Premier League teams got just compare the United CL winning team in 08 with the team that won the league in 2013.
2008 CL winning team
VDS-37
Brown-28
Vidic-26
Ferdinand-29
Evra-27
Scholes-33
Hargreaves-27
Carrick-26
Ronaldo-23
Rooney-22
Tevez-24
2013 Premier League Champions
De Gea-22
Rafael-22
Ferdinand-34
Evans-25
Evra-32
Scholes-38
Carrick-31
Nani-26
Young-27
Rooney-27
RVP-29
Just look at those two first 11's and the decline is obvious. United are the best example, because they let the team get old and still were winning the league. The 2013 team even got more points.
Yes we would, because PSG outplayed Chelsea with 10 men and were the better side. Arsenal would almost certainly have gone out in the next round. Arsenal in recent years have been bettered by Schalke and a injury ravaged Dortmund.moomba said:I think people equate getting knocked out with low quality. If Arsenal and Chelsea got through to the quarter finals on away goals instead of getting knocked out on away goals do you really think we would be having these "whats wrong with English football" debates?
If anything Chelsea's fluke win in 2012 hides just how bad things have been. The performances are just not there in Europe.
As for City you have had hard draws, but why aren't you coming through them? Those groups of death you had were tough for Madrid and Bayern too. Yet they found a way. When Barcelona draw you in the last 16 it is a hard draw for them too, but they have won 4 out of 4. In recent years though it's not just Barcelona, Bayern and Madrid that have been above any English champion, but even the second tier teams in Spain/Germany like Atletico and Dortmund. Dortmund/Atletico/PSG have found their way through tough draws.
If you want a comparison to see how much weaker the Premier League teams got just compare the United CL winning team in 08 with the team that won the league in 2013.
2008 CL winning team
VDS-37
Brown-28
Vidic-26
Ferdinand-29
Evra-27
Scholes-33
Hargreaves-27
Carrick-26
Ronaldo-23
Rooney-22
Tevez-24
2013 Premier League Champions
De Gea-22
Rafael-22
Ferdinand-34
Evans-25
Evra-32
Scholes-38
Carrick-31
Nani-26
Young-27
Rooney-27
RVP-29
Just look at those two first 11's and the decline is obvious. United are the best example, because they let the team get old and still were winning the league. The 2013 team even got more points.
Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
You're talking about the decline of one team, not an entire league.
And that decline has been shown further by their league performances since winning the league.
They also performed better in Europe than domestically last season.
As for our draws Barca, Real and Bayern are the best three teams in Europe. Maybe the world. We're not. Simple as that.
You're talking about the decline of one team, not an entire league.
And that decline has been shown further by their league performances since winning the league.
They also performed better in Europe than domestically last season.
As for our draws Barca, Real and Bayern are the best three teams in Europe. Maybe the world. We're not. Simple as that.
supercrystal7
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Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
If you want we can do the same with the Chelsea side.
Cech
Essien
Terry
Carvalho
Cole
Makelele
Ballack
Lampard
Cole
Malouda
Drogba
compared with now
Courtois
Ivanovic
Terry
Cahill
Cesar
Matic
Fabregas
Oscar
Hazard
Willian
Costa
That Chelsea team did not even win the league. Yet only Hazard and possibly Ivanovic have a shot of getting into the 2008 team. Could go and do the same with Liverpool or Arsenal
EDIT
If 5/6 years ago the English champions and even the English runners up were the best in the world and now they are not it means the league is at the very least relatively in a decline.
That team won the league in 2008 and won the league in 2013. That's the ages the players were of the first 11 at the end of the season.moomba said:Your talking about the decline of one team, not an entire league.
If you want we can do the same with the Chelsea side.
Cech
Essien
Terry
Carvalho
Cole
Makelele
Ballack
Lampard
Cole
Malouda
Drogba
compared with now
Courtois
Ivanovic
Terry
Cahill
Cesar
Matic
Fabregas
Oscar
Hazard
Willian
Costa
That Chelsea team did not even win the league. Yet only Hazard and possibly Ivanovic have a shot of getting into the 2008 team. Could go and do the same with Liverpool or Arsenal
EDIT
If 5/6 years ago the English champions and even the English runners up were the best in the world and now they are not it means the league is at the very least relatively in a decline.
Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
The English teams were never revolutionary in style but between approximately 2005-2010 they had tactical organisation and a strong defensive platform particularly with these CB Partnerships: Rio-Vidic, Terry-Carvalho, Carragher-Hypia, Toure-Campbell.
It says a lot that the best defender in the league this season is an old, slower John Terry.
The English teams were never revolutionary in style but between approximately 2005-2010 they had tactical organisation and a strong defensive platform particularly with these CB Partnerships: Rio-Vidic, Terry-Carvalho, Carragher-Hypia, Toure-Campbell.
It says a lot that the best defender in the league this season is an old, slower John Terry.
supercrystal7
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Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
United probably had one of the weaker midfields, but still had Hargreaves, Scholes, Carrick.
Chelsea had a monstrous midfield with Ballack, Essien, Lampard and Makelele.
Even Liverpool had another monster midfield with Alonso, Mascherano and Gerrard.
Then United had Ronaldo, Liverpool had Torres and Chelsea had Drogba. Only Aguero is in that league.
The only thing this generation has is more flair and creativity in the likes of Silva, Fabregas, Hazard, Sterling, Coutinho, Nasri.
It's not just the defence it's the entire team. English teams never had that much flair then, would say the teams have more flair now, but we can compare the midfields.Falcao said:The English teams were never revolutionary in style but between approximately they had 2005-2010 was tactical organisation and a strong defensive platform particularly with these CB Partnerships: Rio-Vidic, Terry-Carvalho, Carragher-Hypia, Toure-Campbell.
It says a lot that the best defender in the league this season is an old, slower John Terry.
United probably had one of the weaker midfields, but still had Hargreaves, Scholes, Carrick.
Chelsea had a monstrous midfield with Ballack, Essien, Lampard and Makelele.
Even Liverpool had another monster midfield with Alonso, Mascherano and Gerrard.
Then United had Ronaldo, Liverpool had Torres and Chelsea had Drogba. Only Aguero is in that league.
The only thing this generation has is more flair and creativity in the likes of Silva, Fabregas, Hazard, Sterling, Coutinho, Nasri.
Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
I really don't know why you would bother at it doesn't prove a thing.
For a start, the quality of a league isn't just about the performances of the top sides in it.
Secondly, Chelsea are in a development stage, and over the past year or two have been rebuilding a team. Personally I think this one has the potential to be as good as the old one.
IMO there are three teams that are head and shoulders above anyone. I believe that would have been the case had those teams been around in their current formations 5 years ago. The core of one of those teams destroyed England's best team in two finals around 5 years ago.
Beyond that there are maybe a dozen that can win on a given day, and lose on a given day. Chelsea is part of that, Arsenal as well. We;re probably a step back, but we haven't really had a good run at the comp yet.
supercrystal7 said:That team won the league in 2008 and won the league in 2013. That's the ages the players were of the first 11 at the end of the season.moomba said:Your talking about the decline of one team, not an entire league.
If you want we can do the same with the Chelsea side.
I really don't know why you would bother at it doesn't prove a thing.
For a start, the quality of a league isn't just about the performances of the top sides in it.
Secondly, Chelsea are in a development stage, and over the past year or two have been rebuilding a team. Personally I think this one has the potential to be as good as the old one.
IMO there are three teams that are head and shoulders above anyone. I believe that would have been the case had those teams been around in their current formations 5 years ago. The core of one of those teams destroyed England's best team in two finals around 5 years ago.
Beyond that there are maybe a dozen that can win on a given day, and lose on a given day. Chelsea is part of that, Arsenal as well. We;re probably a step back, but we haven't really had a good run at the comp yet.
Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
The world class players are moving to Spain now, not England.
The likes of Ronaldo, Bale and Suarez left England for Spain and players of that quality simply haven't been brought into the league since.
You can talk all day about styles and tactics, but Barcelona's front 3 would probably be the best 3 players in our league.
The Premiership simply hasn't got players as good as the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Robben, Neymar, Suarez and Bale.
I don't think the top 3 or 4 teams in England have many world class players, like the likes of Bayern, Real Madrid and Barca. All those teams have at least 5 or 6 world class players.
The world class players are moving to Spain now, not England.
The likes of Ronaldo, Bale and Suarez left England for Spain and players of that quality simply haven't been brought into the league since.
You can talk all day about styles and tactics, but Barcelona's front 3 would probably be the best 3 players in our league.
The Premiership simply hasn't got players as good as the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Robben, Neymar, Suarez and Bale.
I don't think the top 3 or 4 teams in England have many world class players, like the likes of Bayern, Real Madrid and Barca. All those teams have at least 5 or 6 world class players.
supercrystal7
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Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
Well when we are discussing why English teams are doing badly we are talking about the elite. If we want to discuss the bottom then I can discuss that too.
Showing just how far the top teams have fallen does actually proof how weak the league is becoming.
Yes Chelsea are in the development stage, but they are still top of the league. We are not talking about how things will be in the future. Personally I don't think this team has anywhere near the potential of the past team. Costa will never be better than Drogba, Fabregas never better than Lampard, Cesar never better than Cole, Matic won't reach Makelele levels. Oscar is at a cross roads and Hazard could be really special as could Courtois. The defence though is significantly weaker.
No the last few years have shown that on any given day Atletico and Dortmund were better than either City or Chelsea. Atletico have an aging team so I expect a collapse soon whilst Dortmund already have. Those are 5 team that for the last few years have been above anything in England and generally outclassed the English teams.
I don't see how Arsenal can be in this discussion. 2nd every time in the group stage then they go out in the last 16. Arsenal should be compared to Schalke, Leverkusen and Shaktar, not even PSG/Chelsea let alone the rest.
As for this Barcelona team it's actually weaker than the Barcelona teams of the past. In virtually every position they are weaker than they were before except possibly Neymar against a slightly past it Henry. The Barcelona team used to have Xavi, Iniesta (not old but past it), Alves, Puyol, Henry, Villa and Iniesta in their primes. This Barcelona is just not as good. Even then whilst they could destroy United (due to United's relatively weak midfield), they always struggled against Chelsea. The Chelsea team of that period beat them more often than not and it took one of the worst ref displays for them to lose in 09. The United team of old would match up pretty well with this Madrid team and I would fancy them more times than not. It's only Bayern who really stand alone as something special.
moomba said:supercrystal7 said:That team won the league in 2008 and won the league in 2013. That's the ages the players were of the first 11 at the end of the season.moomba said:Your talking about the decline of one team, not an entire league.
If you want we can do the same with the Chelsea side.
I really don't know why you would bother at it doesn't prove a thing.
For a start, the quality of a league isn't just about the performances of the top sides in it.
Secondly, Chelsea are in a development stage, and over the past year or two have been rebuilding a team. Personally I think this one has the potential to be as good as the old one.
IMO there are three teams that are head and shoulders above anyone. I believe that would have been the case had those teams been around in their current formations 5 years ago. The core of one of those teams destroyed England's best team in two finals around 5 years ago.
Beyond that there are maybe a dozen that can win on a given day, and lose on a given day. Chelsea is part of that, Arsenal as well. We;re probably a step back, but we haven't really had a good run at the comp yet.
Well when we are discussing why English teams are doing badly we are talking about the elite. If we want to discuss the bottom then I can discuss that too.
Showing just how far the top teams have fallen does actually proof how weak the league is becoming.
Yes Chelsea are in the development stage, but they are still top of the league. We are not talking about how things will be in the future. Personally I don't think this team has anywhere near the potential of the past team. Costa will never be better than Drogba, Fabregas never better than Lampard, Cesar never better than Cole, Matic won't reach Makelele levels. Oscar is at a cross roads and Hazard could be really special as could Courtois. The defence though is significantly weaker.
No the last few years have shown that on any given day Atletico and Dortmund were better than either City or Chelsea. Atletico have an aging team so I expect a collapse soon whilst Dortmund already have. Those are 5 team that for the last few years have been above anything in England and generally outclassed the English teams.
I don't see how Arsenal can be in this discussion. 2nd every time in the group stage then they go out in the last 16. Arsenal should be compared to Schalke, Leverkusen and Shaktar, not even PSG/Chelsea let alone the rest.
As for this Barcelona team it's actually weaker than the Barcelona teams of the past. In virtually every position they are weaker than they were before except possibly Neymar against a slightly past it Henry. The Barcelona team used to have Xavi, Iniesta (not old but past it), Alves, Puyol, Henry, Villa and Iniesta in their primes. This Barcelona is just not as good. Even then whilst they could destroy United (due to United's relatively weak midfield), they always struggled against Chelsea. The Chelsea team of that period beat them more often than not and it took one of the worst ref displays for them to lose in 09. The United team of old would match up pretty well with this Madrid team and I would fancy them more times than not. It's only Bayern who really stand alone as something special.
Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
If we want to talk about why Chelsea is doing badly, why Arsenal is doing badly, why United is doing badly etc it would be a worthwhile discussion.
I don't agree that the top sides are doing badly but I understand people are going to react to the early exits.
But to put it all under the umbrella "whats wrong with the premier league" isa bit baffling to me.
The problems at Chelsea are different from the problems at other clubs. Nothing at all to do with this supposed "decline of the premier league".
Chelsea is IMO in great shape, I would imagine they will be there at the business end of next years champions league campaign as they were last year with a worse team.
We are in great shape, and with a friendlier draw will be up there as well.
Arsenal battered Monaco Tuesday night and were unlucky to go out on away goals.
Revisit this in a years time, and with not much effort you could have a totally different perspective. That wouldnt be the case if there was something intrinsically wrong with the league.
By the way compare our 2008 team to 2013 and tell me we're going downhill if you don't mind.
supercrystal7 said:Well when we are discussing why English teams are doing badly we are talking about the elite. If we want to discuss the bottom then I can discuss that too.
If we want to talk about why Chelsea is doing badly, why Arsenal is doing badly, why United is doing badly etc it would be a worthwhile discussion.
I don't agree that the top sides are doing badly but I understand people are going to react to the early exits.
But to put it all under the umbrella "whats wrong with the premier league" isa bit baffling to me.
The problems at Chelsea are different from the problems at other clubs. Nothing at all to do with this supposed "decline of the premier league".
Chelsea is IMO in great shape, I would imagine they will be there at the business end of next years champions league campaign as they were last year with a worse team.
We are in great shape, and with a friendlier draw will be up there as well.
Arsenal battered Monaco Tuesday night and were unlucky to go out on away goals.
Revisit this in a years time, and with not much effort you could have a totally different perspective. That wouldnt be the case if there was something intrinsically wrong with the league.
By the way compare our 2008 team to 2013 and tell me we're going downhill if you don't mind.
Chippy_boy
Well-Known Member
Re: What's wrong with the Premier League?
I'll edit the thread title.
moomba said:supercrystal7 said:Well when we are discussing why English teams are doing badly we are talking about the elite. If we want to discuss the bottom then I can discuss that too.
If we want to talk about why Chelsea is doing badly, why Arsenal is doing badly, why United is doing badly etc it would be a worthwhile discussion.
I don't agree that the top sides are doing badly but I understand people are going to react to the early exits.
But to put it all under the umbrella "whats wrong with the premier league" isa bit baffling to me.
I'll edit the thread title.
Even with the edited title, I'll still say nothing is wrong.
Chelsea are on the rise, they'll be up there in all comps next season.
We'll be there or thereabouts. See how our draw is.
Arsenal are improving too, if they keep building their squad they'll be very competitive.
Liverpool/Rags at their best will struggle against the top quality but capable of reaching the knockouts depending on the drawnand their form.
I really don't think things are that bad.
Other teams around Europe have lifted their game, and the big three are formidable. But I'd be surprised if at least two english teams don't reach the quarter finals next season, and maybe even beyond that.
Chelsea are on the rise, they'll be up there in all comps next season.
We'll be there or thereabouts. See how our draw is.
Arsenal are improving too, if they keep building their squad they'll be very competitive.
Liverpool/Rags at their best will struggle against the top quality but capable of reaching the knockouts depending on the drawnand their form.
I really don't think things are that bad.
Other teams around Europe have lifted their game, and the big three are formidable. But I'd be surprised if at least two english teams don't reach the quarter finals next season, and maybe even beyond that.
Chippy_boy
Well-Known Member
moomba said:Even with the edited title, I'll still say nothing is wrong.
Chelsea are on the rise, they'll be up there in all comps next season.
We'll be there or thereabouts. See how our draw is.
Arsenal are improving too, if they keep building their squad they'll be very competitive.
Liverpool/Rags at their best will struggle against the top quality but capable of reaching the knockouts depending on the drawnand their form.
I really don't think things are that bad.
Other teams around Europe have lifted their game, and the big three are formidable. But I'd be surprised if at least two english teams don't reach the quarter finals next season, and maybe even beyond that.
If your prediction / aspiration is two out of the last eight, i'd say that's still not great.
remember arthur mann
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They've lost the art of defending, simple as that.
lastmanback
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Last 30 years only been won 4 times by English team. Nothing strange about this season if you think about It. This theory of bottom teams in prem better than bottom of other leagues where's the stats to prove this myth.
Chippy_boy said:moomba said:Even with the edited title, I'll still say nothing is wrong.
Chelsea are on the rise, they'll be up there in all comps next season.
We'll be there or thereabouts. See how our draw is.
Arsenal are improving too, if they keep building their squad they'll be very competitive.
Liverpool/Rags at their best will struggle against the top quality but capable of reaching the knockouts depending on the drawnand their form.
I really don't think things are that bad.
Other teams around Europe have lifted their game, and the big three are formidable. But I'd be surprised if at least two english teams don't reach the quarter finals next season, and maybe even beyond that.
If your prediction / aspiration is two out of the last eight, i'd say that's still not great.
I said at least two.
Maybe your expectations are a bit unrealistic.