Where do you stand on Whaling ?

[JoeMercer'sWay]

I would hunt whales with cars.

Ok, that was pretty funny :D

:-)

-- Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:52 pm --

Nature doesn't evolve around man all the time, or there wouldn't be lethal illnesses/natural disasters and the like.

.

Yes it does fella.

nature supercedes us, always has done, always will do.

 

[SWP's back]

nature supercedes us, always has done, always will do.

What does that actually mean in reference to this debate?

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

There are countless species we can't kill, naturally.

it's not natural selection to exterminate other species in a non-natural fashion.

it isn't "survival of the fittest" either, and it is neither of the above which applies to our murdering of whales, amongst other species.

Lethal illnesses aren't just man related, but they show how fallible we are naturally.

Naturally? What do you mean. We are part of nature and as such, anything we do is natural. Animals use tools to survive, are they "un-natural"?

pretty vague reply.

can you tell me what is natural about using man-made tools to make a man flotation device to use a man made capturing device on a whale, to which we are not a natural predator(hence the man-made stuff coming before) to kill it using a man made weapon.

It just isn't.

 

[Damocles]

There are countless species we can't kill, naturally.

it's not natural selection to exterminate other species in a non-natural fashion.

it isn't "survival of the fittest" either, and it is neither of the above which applies to our murdering of whales, amongst other species.

Lethal illnesses aren't just man related, but they show how fallible we are naturally.

Ok, so surely you disagree with bleach?

Bleach kills BILLIONS of different species of bacteria, almost all of them are completely unharmful to human.

Bleach isn't part of the human body.
Bleach exterminates entire species.

This is essentially what you are saying. The only difference is that whales are cute and bacteria isn't.<br /><br />-- Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:03 pm --<br /><br />

pretty vague reply.

can you tell me what is natural about using man-made tools to make a man flotation device to use a man made capturing device on a whale, to which we are not a natural predator(hence the man-made stuff coming before) to kill it using a man made weapon.

It just isn't.

Are chimps who use stones to crack open the heads of other chimps (which they could not do without their invented tool) unnatural killers?

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

nature supercedes us, always has done, always will do.

What does that actually mean in reference to this debate?

means we don't own the place and are mere pawns in the grand scheme of things and therefore don't have the right to non-naturally exterminate other species just because we think we're so superior.

 

[mcnab-sees-red]

When we evolved part of our evolution was to develop reasoning allowing us to determine that stuff could be killed with tools etc. Naturally

 

[SWP's back]

nature supercedes us, always has done, always will do.

What does that actually mean in reference to this debate?

means we don't own the place and are mere pawns in the grand scheme of things and therefore don't have the right to non-naturally exterminate other species just because we think we're so superior.

I don't agree with damocles's view (whether he believes it is another thing) but what he says about humankind is entirely true.

As we are part of nature, anything we do is natural, whether you agree with it or not.

 

[Damocles]

nature supercedes us, always has done, always will do.

What does that actually mean in reference to this debate?

means we don't own the place and are mere pawns in the grand scheme of things and therefore don't have the right to non-naturally exterminate other species just because we think we're so superior.

How are we "pawns in the grand scheme of things"?

Who is the King in the grand scheme of things then?

You say we don't own the place (which my mortgage contract disagrees with); who does own it then?

You are deriding the accomplishments and the place in nature of your species and I cannot see any justification behind it apart from a sort of naturalist "white guilt" so to speak.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

There are countless species we can't kill, naturally.

it's not natural selection to exterminate other species in a non-natural fashion.

it isn't "survival of the fittest" either, and it is neither of the above which applies to our murdering of whales, amongst other species.

Lethal illnesses aren't just man related, but they show how fallible we are naturally.

Ok, so surely you disagree with bleach?

Bleach kills BILLIONS of different species of bacteria, almost all of them are completely unharmful to human.

Bleach isn't part of the human body.
Bleach exterminates entire species.

This is essentially what you are saying. The only difference is that whales are cute and bacteria isn't.

-- Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:03 pm --

pretty vague reply.

can you tell me what is natural about using man-made tools to make a man flotation device to use a man made capturing device on a whale, to which we are not a natural predator(hence the man-made stuff coming before) to kill it using a man made weapon.

It just isn't.

Are chimps who use stones to crack open the heads of other chimps (which they could not do without their invented tool) unnatural killers?

on the bacteria:

that's a fair point which proves the point perfectly, hadn't thought about it from that point of view but yhp.

on the chimps:

are you saying they specifically invent a tool ie. chisel the stone into a shape, or just use a stone in its natural form?

either way, to some degree it is an unnatural kill, as it has used a weapon, though I'd say it is of a lesser degree to us inventing and constructing weapons to kill, like we have done.

I see where the debate will head, which is to "well surely natural evolution means that our intelligence is natural therefore the result of that must surely be natural, even if that includes weapons", and its a fair point to a certain extent, however my original qualm was with your view of hunting to extinction, which to me is wrong, hunting for survival is the basis for all species, however I do feel the natural characteristics of a specie(can't spell) are more natural than a specie-created weapon, I feel that's far more artificial, but I can concede that that is the result of intelligence based evolution, as opposed to physical, though I don't think that justifies us being any better, as there are many, many physical flaws we have that our intelligence compensates for, so we aren't really that superior, we just abuse our intelligence too often, hence why extermination is seen as acceptable by some people.

 

[roj]

Does bleach kill the good bacteria in yoghurt?