Who should be the next leader of the Tory party?

[Shaelumstash]

Changing to PR isn’t going to happen anytime soon. And why can we vote in a left of centre gov for 15 years and England can’t? The climate you talk of is here too, it’s just we aren’t as easily scared by Right wing press and media. They have a ring through your nose and lead you about like fucking twats. That’s the issue. It always has been. Brexit the Tories where will it fucking end? Hopefully we will grow enough balls and go it alone , or it’s a future held hostage to Englands inability to wake up and smell the coffee. You want a future run by right wing incompetent fucktards is your right, it should never be our lot.

When you say “you”, who are you talking about, exactly?

Manchester is a Labour stronghold and has been for donkeys years. We’re getting more fucked over by the Daily Mail reading Tory voters in the shires than you are.

Manchester has more in common with Glasgow than it does with Buckinghamshire, strange to throw everyone south of Gretna into some ubiquitous Tory voting block.

In anything, Manchester has more right to feel aggrieved about having the Tories foisted on us than much of Scotland. At least we’re voting for the only opposition that can unseat them.

Vote SNP, get the Tories. If you voted Labour, you might just get Labour.

 

[Mike D]

Changing to PR isn’t going to happen anytime soon. And why can we vote in a left of centre gov for 15 years and England can’t? The climate you talk of is here too, it’s just we aren’t as easily scared by Right wing press and media. They have a ring through your nose and lead you about like fucking twats. That’s the issue. It always has been. Brexit the Tories where will it fucking end? Hopefully we will grow enough balls and go it alone , or it’s a future held hostage to Englands inability to wake up and smell the coffee. You want a future run by right wing incompetent fucktards is your right, it should never be our lot.

If we get a hung parliament which is possible I would say that a pact with LibDems it would be almost a given.

 

[Gabriel]

When you say “you”, who are you talking about, exactly?

Manchester is a Labour stronghold and has been for donkeys years. We’re getting more fucked over by the Daily Mail reading Tory voters in the shires than you are.

Manchester has more in common with Glasgow than it does with Buckinghamshire, strange to throw everyone south of Gretna into some ubiquitous Tory voting block.

In anything, Manchester has more right to feel aggrieved about having the Tories foisted on us than much of Scotland. At least we’re voting for the only opposition that can unseat them.

Vote SNP, get the Tories. If you voted Labour, you might just get Labour.

To be fair, at the last election, 9 of Greater Manchester’s 27 seats returned Conservative MPs whereas 6 of Scotland’s 59 seats returned Conservative MPs, none in the Glasgow environs.

As I pointed out in the Brexit thread, England does not need Labour Scottish MPs to win an election.

 

[Mike D]

Can we please just end this pantomime now we know who the winner is. The tories are never going to vote a non white person as PM and today bumper profit announcements from Shell and Centrica has just put the top hat on it.
We have an ex Shell employee and here's the tweet and I will leave you to fill in the gaps.
When I left university I got a job with Shell on their graduate scheme. One of my roles was as a commercial manager for liquid natural gas shipping, project economics and contract negotiation.

 

[inbetween]

Changing to PR isn’t going to happen anytime soon. And why can we vote in a left of centre gov for 15 years and England can’t? The climate you talk of is here too, it’s just we aren’t as easily scared by Right wing press and media. They have a ring through your nose and lead you about like fucking twats. That’s the issue. It always has been. Brexit the Tories where will it fucking end? Hopefully we will grow enough balls and go it alone , or it’s a future held hostage to Englands inability to wake up and smell the coffee. You want a future run by right wing incompetent fucktards is your right, it should never be our lot.

Do people in Scotland really vote for the SNP to get centre left policies or are they just expressing their nationalist and ideological aim which is to leave the UK?

I hear the SNP are very poorly thought of in Scotland however they're the only party left that support independence. It's no different at all to the Tories who won in 2015 to deliver a referendum and they've won constantly since to deliver the result of it. The Tories will lose when Brexit is no longer an issue and until then they'll win or do well purely because of the lack of energy from other parties.

It's virtually certain that Scottish independence would be terrible for Scotland. Many credible sources show that Scottish independence would be 2/3x worse for Scotland than Brexit.

Clearly if we're talking of the influence on voting stupidity alone then there's a great argument that the anti-English Scottish press is just as powerful as the supposed right-wing press and media in England..... It makes zero sense to leave the UK just as much as it made no real sense for the UK to leave the EU. All reasoning around that is ideological and found in prejudices and other things.

 

[Shaelumstash]

To be fair, at the last election, 9 of Greater Manchester’s 27 seats returned Conservative MPs whereas 6 of Scotland’s 59 seats returned Conservative MPs, none in the Glasgow environs.

As I pointed out in the Brexit thread, England does not need Labour Scottish MPs to win an election.

To be fair, I said Manchester, and none of those 9 seats are in Manchester.

But even if you include the likes of Bury who voted Tory, the region overwhelmingly voted Labour, as it always does.

Greater Manchester returned a lot more Labour seats than the whole of Scotland did.

It may well be possible for Labour to win a majority with zero seats from Scotland. But I tell you what, it wouldn’t half fucking help!

It’s just an absolute absurdity to throw “England” into one homogenous Tory voting block.

If Scotland doesn’t want the Tories to win the next election, the best thing they can do is vote Labour because they’re the only party that can get rid of them.

Vote SNP, get Tory

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

To be fair, at the last election, 9 of Greater Manchester’s 27 seats returned Conservative MPs whereas 6 of Scotland’s 59 seats returned Conservative MPs, none in the Glasgow environs.

As I pointed out in the Brexit thread, England does not need Labour Scottish MPs to win an election.

SNP got less than 4% of the vote but almost 8% (56) of the MP’s. Greens got 2.6% of the votes and one MP.
Tories got 43% of the vote and 56% of the MPs.
That, in a nutshell, is what’s wrong with ‘democracy’.

 

[TheBlueDune]

The collective relief when he became PM was almost euphoric. Promised so much.

Yet delivered little. Made a few quid for himself along the way.

I don't want the Tory cunts back in power. I would like to see a Labour government that will do its own thing and not be a piss poor Blair tribute act.

It feels like the Tories want to go back to Thatcherite 80's and the Labour want to do the same with a return to the 90's.

The world has changed dramatically since then. All I want is fairness all I see is a current government stealing everything for profit and an opposition letting them with no radical policy that will in invigorate the nation and the people. I'm feeling run down by it all.

I apologise to @Shaelumstash for my previous outburst. I'm getting vexed with it all and need to take a chill pill.

Yearning for a "good old days" Labour party will never deliver.

The Labour party formed at a time when working people's aspirations were very basic:
- food on the table or literally starve
- healthcare to stop children dying as infants
- a roof

Today's "working class" aspirations are many notches above:
- affordable petrol
- own your home
- free social care

The original Labour party appealed to a population coming out of Victorian industrial urbanisation described in graphic terms by Marx and Engels and inspired by their writings.
The communities delivered by Cadbury, Lever and Salt in Bournville, Port Sunlight, Salaire, etc. showed that providing people with better environmental conditions could be viable and that's what people wanted - people will always vote for better than today.

People will never vote for the good old days (unless they are Tory pensioners voting for a return to 1950s Macmillan or 1980s Thatcher).

The Labour party in a form that is addressing today's problems and people's aspirations for the 2030s rather than promising solutions to 1920s or 1960s problems has got to be better than the ***** currently in control, even if they're not waving a red flag and singing The Internationale.

The deliberate erosion of rights with new vindictive laws by the right wing government will push the people to widespread revolt with major industrial action.
And that may be what both sides are targeting but in today's ìnterconnected global world that would be self destructive.

 

[Gabriel]

To be fair, I said Manchester, and none of those 9 seats are in Manchester.

But even if you include the likes of Bury who voted Tory, the region overwhelmingly voted Labour, as it always does.

Greater Manchester returned a lot more Labour seats than the whole of Scotland did.

It may well be possible for Labour to win a majority with zero seats from Scotland. But I tell you what, it wouldn’t half fucking help!

It’s just an absolute absurdity to throw “England” into one homogenous Tory voting block.

If Scotland doesn’t want the Tories to win the next election, the best thing they can do is vote Labour because they’re the only party that can get rid of them.

Vote SNP, get Tory

That‘s true about Manchester but your last point is reductionist and just the same as viewing England as one homogenous block. Everything is more nuanced.

As I pointed out here, Labour would have won in the past even without Scottish MPs. It now needs to forget about Scotland and seek to win in England and Wales either on its own or with the help of the Liberal Democrats. It will probably not, however, win outright on its own with a commanding majority. To win in England, it thus needs to work on attracting voters in the likes of Bury North, Bury South, Bolton North East, Cheadle BC etc., yet the Labour message that will win in those constituencies just won’t work in Scotland. Indeed, the posters on here give us a good indication how people in England and Scotland have drifted further apart.

I would imagine Labour and the Liberal Democrats, heck even the Conservatives, would privately recognise that Scotland is now an electoral lost cause and will target their finite resources on winning those key seats south of the border. The trick for Labour is moving just far enough to the right to capture those sorts of seats, and Truss arguably gives them the better chance of doing that.

 

[Gabriel]

SNP got less than 4% of the vote but almost 8% (56) of the MP’s. Greens got 2.6% of the votes and one MP.
Tories got 43% of the vote and 56% of the MPs.
That, in a nutshell, is what’s wrong with ‘democracy’.

It’s one of the things that’s wrong with ‘democracy’, I’d agree. The people, however, had a chance to change that in 2011, yet only 42.2% bothered to participate and 67.9% of them were happy with their lot.