Why So Blue?

[Stoned Rose]

Learn what and adapt to what ?

I'm genuinely intrigued to know what it is that you know that our collection of highly paid professionals don't.

Again you're missing the point.

1. That we can't play with a 2 man central midfield (especially when Toure is one of said pair).

2. That we can't play without tempo and 100% commitment.

3. That we cant get away with not concentrating fully for the whole game.

4. That we can't play such a high line.

5. That we can't afford to miss chances.

I'd be extremely surprised if our staff don't 'know' these things. It's the learning from them and the adapting to them that's insufficient.

If you feel I'm wrong, I'm happy to hear your reasoning for each of my points.

 

[Stoned Rose]

Is poor finishing a tactical problem, a mindset problem, or just one of those things?

You tell us.

And conversely, when a team is putting its chances away, is that tactical brilliance, a great mindset or just of of those things?

 

[cleavers]

Is poor finishing a tactical problem, a mindset problem, or just one of those things?

No idea mate, we were clinical against Bournemouth first half, with the same players. Bony still doesn't look confident, despite his two at the weekend, Sterling didn't look like he knew his role, and Sevilla have better defenders.

 

[Stoned Rose]

The stats don't really back that up, we had plenty of chances in Germany, 25, but only 6 on target, but we just didn't take them, I thought we played OK in Germany. Last night 16 and 6, but I thought we were poor last night.

In all 3 CL games this season we've had more attempts than the other team, and more or equal on target, we need to take more of our chances.

When I say both teams I mean Sevilla and Gladbach, not whichever of them and us.

Also, those stats are ambiguous to say the least.

'Chances' and 'shots on goal' for example are hugely different things.

There's no way on earth we had 25 chances to score against Gladbach for example.

 

[meeesh]

Well now he didn't say "Sevilla are shit, play in a tinpot league and we should be beating them by 6" did he?

No he didn't,mind you I never saw me quoting we should beat them by 6 neither,come to think of it I never said they were shit,I said we should be brushing them aside,I never even mentioned by how many goals..........tinpot league,yea I stick by that,pretty similair to SPL

 

[Rolee]

There's some amount of exaggerating going on here, they had a 15 minute spell in the first half when they were dominant, that aside it was a fairly even contest.

True we weren't at our best but the way some are talking you'd think we did a smash and grab, not true at all. It seems some are more into focussing on the negative and ignoring the positive, bit like the British press truth be told.

 

[ono]

Spending some time reading this forum this morning I'm staggered by the negativity about last night. I realise that it wasn't our best performance but equally we won, and taking into account the result that Juve got, the win last night no matter how we got it is huge.

I keep reading that we should be worried about the rags as well. Why? What is it in their form that is much more impressive than ours? Which players have they got who are better than ours? Their manager a better manager than ours?

And all the hanging our own players out to dry, slagging off all and sundry for being shit/naive/not good enough. Some people on here seem intent to slag anything and everything off at every opportunity. Makes the forum a fucking terrible place.

What are you staggered by?

We were only a minute or so away from drawing at home against a team who have been fairly average all season. Don't be fooled by their win over Barcelona - anyone who watched that game will tell you they could have lost that by 4 or 5 and had no complaints. The result last night could be forgiven if we had played well, but for the most part we were awful. I think everyone is delighted with the win, but there's no getting away from the fact that in the CL, rather than excelling, we are getting out of jail.

On top of that we were largely awful away in Germany, and without Hart, would have been 2 or 3 down against a team who up to that point, had been absolutely awful all season. Add that to the Juve performance where we were hardly great (again Juve have been woeful all season) and add it to the last 3 seasons where we have churned out bad performance after bad performance in Europe - I'm thinking Roma at home, CSKA home and away, Ajax home and away, Napoli home and away.

Even in the league, ever since the Juve game, we have been for the large part, fairly poor. West Ham at home was awful for 45 minutes. We followed that up with a shambles of a performance at Spurs. We followed that up with a poor display in Germany and we followed that up with a really bad 45 minutes against Newcastle. We should have been 2-0 down, which changes the complexion of the game (the offside goal).

Bournemouth last week was a bit better, but again we could have been a goal down and a man down after 5 minutes. The goal we conceded against them was almost a carbon copy of the one we conceded against West Ham, and i believe this is where the frustration is coming from.

We don't appear to learn our lessons. 4-4-2 last night was a prime example of this and it's absolutely criminal that we would continue with a formation which quite simply doesn't work in European football. Furthermore it is insane to play a player (Sterling) out of position to facilitate the madness. It just doesn't work, we leave ourselves far too open. We don't work well without the ball and if Bournemouth and West Ham can pass through us and score with such ease, i do worry about what will happen when we come across someone half decent.

People are worried about how we are playing and as such will voice this worry on this forum. That's just the way it is.

 

[bluemc1]

yeah we won but what people are seeing is that MP is just not learning and with that set up we would be on the wrong end of a 3 4 5 nil tonking off one of the big boys

 

[BillyShears]

There's some amount of exaggerating going on here, they had a 15 minute spell in the first half when they were dominant, that aside it was a fairly even contest.

True we weren't at our best but the way some are talking you'd think we did a smash and grab, not true at all. It seems some are more into focussing on the negative and ignoring the positive, bit like the British press truth be told.

Nail on head. Especially the last sentence.

 

[cleavers]

When I say both teams I mean Sevilla and Gladbach, not whichever of them and us.

Also, those stats are ambiguous to say the least.

'Chances' and 'shots on goal' for example are hugely different things.

There's no way on earth we had 25 chances to score against Gladbach for example.

I'm well aware of that, but there isn't a stat for off target good chances (that I know about anyway). You said "taken half their chances" and "embarrasing defeats", yet the "shots on target" in both games say otherwise, as we equalled or bettered both teams, so your post was also misleading really, and we need to be taking more of ours.

 

[Stoned Rose]

I'm well aware of that, but there isn't a stat for off target good chances (that I know about anyway). You said "taken half their chances" and "embarrasing defeats", yet the "shots on target" in both games say otherwise, as we equalled or bettered both teams, so your post was also misleading really, and we need to be taking more of ours.

You seem to have the stats to hand - so could you tell me how many chances both Gladbach and Sevilla had?

 

[BillyShears]

Again you're missing the point.

1. That we can't play with a 2 man central midfield (especially when Toure is one of said pair).

2. That we can't play without tempo and 100% commitment.

3. That we cant get away with not concentrating fully for the whole game.

4. That we can't play such a high line.

5. That we can't afford to miss chances.

I'd be extremely surprised if our staff don't 'know' these things. It's the learning from them and the adapting to them that's insufficient.

If you feel I'm wrong, I'm happy to hear your reasoning for each of my points.

Three of those things (playing without commitment, concentrating for 90 minutes, and missing chances) go without saying. Those things have little to do with tactical set up or coaching and everything to do with individual performances. You can have everyone concentrate for 90 minutes and play with 100% commitment, but the strikers struggle. Equally you can have the perfect attacking performance, a defender can make a poor decision in a one on one and you concede.

With regards to the high line and Toure, I simply don't agree. I don't agree that Toure is the huge problem people are making out. I think it totally ignores the attacking qualities he brings to the game. Madrid and Barca have won the CL in the last two years playing with a very high line.

I'm not arguing that there aren't flaws in the way we play or that we played well last night. I am however arguing that the reaction to last night's performance is both knee jerk and OTT from many corners. As Rolee says above, we weren't at our best but equally we won, and in Europe it's rare that you'll dominate a side for 90 minutes. They will have moments over the 90 minutes where they are dominating. It's the nature of the competition because of the quality of the sides in it.

 

[Rösler von Stretfordbömber]

Billy, it seems like you are tyring to tell people how they are "supposed to" react on an internet forum.

Kind of like "hey, City fans, stop booing our shite anthem!" Doesn't seem a winnable fight as far as that goes.

I don't disagree with you as to your points about the negativity, etc. But if the girlish adolescent shriekings of the likes of Big Yaya Wilko trouble you that much then just put him/her/it on "ignore" and be done with them. Sorted.

 

[cleavers]

You seem to have the stats to hand - so could you tell me how many chances both Gladbach and Sevilla had?

I think Gladbach was 16 and 5 on target, and last night 12 and 2.

 

[hgblue]

yeah we won but what people are seeing is that MP is just not learning and with that set up we would be on the wrong end of a 3 4 5 nil tonking off one of the big boys

I watched Bayern Munich lose the other night and felt as though I'd just watched a team capable of winning the competiton. I watched us beat Sevilla and I felt like I was locked into a re-run of nearly all our Champs League home games. There's not a hope in hell we'll win the competition playing like that.

 

[BillyShears]

Billy, it seems like you are tyring to tell people how they are "supposed to" react on an internet forum.

Kind of like "hey, City fans, stop booing our shite anthem!" Doesn't seem a winnable fight as far as that goes.

I don't disagree with you as to your points about the negativity, etc. But if the girlish adolescent shriekings of the likes of Big Yaya Wilko trouble you that much then just put him/her/it on "ignore" and be done with them. Sorted.

Just expressing my opinion on what i've read since last night. It's not about individual posters but more a general feeling across the threads I've read. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of balance, even from those posters who probably consider themselves more cerebral and less reactionary.

 

[argyle]

Well its like slagging Mancini every opportunity. Remember Billy?

lol

 

[BillyShears]

lol

You'd both have a point if the slagging currently going on around the forum was restricted to the manager. Only it isn't Pretty much every outfield player with the exception of De Bruyne has been slagged off royally at some point in the last month. Bit tragic on a City forum. The reality of what we are is far removed from the reflections on Bluemoon at present.

 

[meeesh]

Just expressing my opinion on what i've read since last night. It's not about individual posters but more a general feeling across the threads I've read. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of balance, even from those posters who probably consider themselves more cerebral and less reactionary.

Or to quote - hormonal teenage girl syndrome reactions

 

[Stoned Rose]

Three of those things (playing without commitment, concentrating for 90 minutes, and missing chances) go without saying. Those things have little to do with tactical set up or coaching and everything to do with individual performances. You can have everyone concentrate for 90 minutes and play with 100% commitment, but the strikers struggle. Equally you can have the perfect attacking performance, a defender can make a poor decision in a one on one and you concede.

If the strikers play with 100% commitment and concentrate for 90 minutes, they will hit the target (unlike some of the chances they've had in the CL this season) and therefore increase their chances of actually scoring, they won't stray offside (potentially 'wasting' good opportunities to score), and they will get things 'right'. At this level all of these facets are incredibly important. If the strikers do these things they won't 'struggle'.

Equally, if a defender 'makes a mistake' he cannot have been fully concentrated or focused which again supports my point that concentration for 90 minutes is essential. The only way a 'mistake' can be justified is if it's something like a slip or similar which was probably beyond his control and even classing that as a 'mistake' would be harsh imo. Look at the free kick that hit the post last night - Hart wasn't concentrating and we got away with it by the skin of our teeth.

With regards to the high line and Toure, I simply don't agree. I don't agree that Toure is the huge problem people are making out. I think it totally ignores the attacking qualities he brings to the game. Madrid and Barca have won the CL in the last two years playing with a very high line.

Toure's attacking qualities are not up for debate imo. He's brilliant in that regard. Defensively he's a complete liability, he leaves huge gaps in midfield, saunters about rather than tracking back properly and does absolutely dick all when we're defending set pieces and corners which for a man of his height and strength is unacceptable.

I'm not arguing that there aren't flaws in the way we play or that we played well last night. I am however arguing that the reaction to last night's performance is both knee jerk and OTT from many corners. As Rolee says above, we weren't at our best but equally we won, and in Europe it's rare that you'll dominate a side for 90 minutes. They will have moments over the 90 minutes where they are dominating. It's the nature of the competition because of the quality of the sides in it.

It can not be knee jerk when there are several years worth of similar performances underpinning it. No one is expecting us to dominate for 90 minutesso I'm unsure why you've stated this.