yaya.....

[OB1]

So, Dave, which points lost do you specifically think can be blamed on Yaya?

Well, it isn't as simple as "Blaming it on Ya Ya", OB, but we've had Bayern running past him and Southampton running past him, and Cardiff too, off the top of my head. It was bad at home to Hull, too.

I'm not blaming him or not rating him as a player, but him in that role in that system is causing us a problem.

I realise that you are not blaming him per se and that we face some issues with the two man midfield in certain games but I am far from convinced that particular issue has cost us many points so far; it certainly didn't cost us points in the Hull game. I'm not sure it cost us points at Saints: as you pointed out in another thread, we kept giving the ball away cheaply.

I have said often enough that my preference is a 4-3-3 formation or a 4-2-3-1 but Pelle is not for turning so I think we have to accept that in soome games we will sacrifice some possession. I imagine part of Pelle's thinking is that with the players at his disposal, City should be keeping the ball, regardless of the numbers they face in midfield. Keeping the ball is normally one of Yaya's strengths.

 

[adrianr]

So essentially a 4-3-3.... How novel and common-sense based that is! :-)

It's so obvious what we need to do, it makes a mockery of why it isn't being done. There was nothing much wrong with our 4-2-3-1 that better personnel wouldn't have solved IMHO.

The question for me has continually been about personnel rather than straight stubbornness from the manager. I'm curious as to what variation of 433, given our injuries in the last couple of months, would be workable regularly.

The problem as I see it is that with Rodwell being injured so much, you either play Garcia in the middle or you play Milner. Neither provides enough technical quality, which is imperative to the way we play. You can move Nasri central as we've seen Pellegrini do at times during the course of games, but again, with Silva and Jovetic injured it limits the options you can play from wide areas.

Basically any 433 which needs to accommodate Milner or Garcia in a central midfield or wide attacking berth, isn't good enough IMO and it isn't something i'd be in favour of using even against a team like Southampton.

4-3-3 has variations with my personal choice being a 4-1-2-3. I really don't see the need for us to have 2 specialist defensive midfielders when one will do if at least one of the more advanced midfield two is a quality box to box midfielder. In Yaya's case if we compressed the space around him, he'd have less ground to cover and would be far more effective than having to cover vast amounts of space.

I'd play Fernadinho in front of the back four and have Silva & Yaya in front of him with a front 3 of Sergio in the middle flanked by Nasri to the left and Navas to the right. Playing as a unit in this formation I feel would be best for us right now. As always, we should attack as a unit and defend as a unit to compress the playing space. This would always leave us open to the counter-attack but with Clichy and Kompany to provide pace and the speed of thought of Zabs and Nasty, I reckon we'd be as solid as we've ever been whilst being as flair-filled as we've ever been.

I'd start from this basis in all matches and make my adjustments according to who we're playing and where we're playing them. We can't seriously expect to go into matches against the Real's, Barca's & Bayern's of this world and come out with any change by deploying an antiquated 4-4-2 formation. Norwich and the Rags at home yes, but not against teams who have the personnel and a tactician at the helm who can easily counter a 4-4-2.

Moyes is no great tactician, but even he sussed at 4-0 down that he needed to change something during the recent derby. When ManUre went to a 3 man midfield, the pendulum swung in their favour, it was just a blessing that we were already out of sight and able to see the game out.

Wrote eirily similar in another thread, though the players were slightly different under the assumption of a fit Jovetic. Fernandinho at the base, Nasri and Yaya ahead (As I believe they have the best understanding), then Silva and Jovetic flanking Aguero up top.

Only thing is this leaves Negredo out in the cold, and if Dzeko is out in the cold already it leaves him pretty much out of the club. But then someone is always getting dropped, you can't accomodate everyone.

 

[quiet_riot]

Wrote eirily similar in another thread, though the players were slightly different under the assumption of a fit Jovetic. Fernandinho at the base, Nasri and Yaya ahead (As I believe they have the best understanding), then Silva and Jovetic flanking Aguero up top.

Only thing is this leaves Negredo out in the cold, and if Dzeko is out in the cold already it leaves him pretty much out of the club. But then someone is always getting dropped, you can't accomodate everyone.

We could play 3 at the back.... ;)

 

[Oystercatcher28]

Yaya is fantastic but he can be frustrating at times. You can't blames losses and points dropped on an individual - the team does not paly good enough and the team makes mistakes. The individual gets the blame. No referee or individual can take wholesale fault, the Manager can change the system, players as and when or back the individual to bounce back.

We're 5 points off the top spot - a massive mistake (at the back and between the sticks) at Chelsea stopped that being 4, and pittle-poor showings in second half games at Villa and Cardiff; and the annual freakshow at Sunderland resulted in nowt. Team errors. Stoke away, I'll take, tough place to go and fair result - same with Saints.

In all the games, Yaya has not stood out anywhere near other players as being at fault or particularly bad. The team must improve. It can improve.

We're on a 5 game unbeaten run... crisis, my ar$e!

 

[OB1]

The question for me has continually been about personnel rather than straight stubbornness from the manager. I'm curious as to what variation of 433, given our injuries in the last couple of months, would be workable regularly.

The problem as I see it is that with Rodwell being injured so much, you either play Garcia in the middle or you play Milner. Neither provides enough technical quality, which is imperative to the way we play. You can move Nasri central as we've seen Pellegrini do at times during the course of games, but again, with Silva and Jovetic injured it limits the options you can play from wide areas.

Basically any 433 which needs to accommodate Milner or Garcia in a central midfield or wide attacking berth, isn't good enough IMO and it isn't something i'd be in favour of using even against a team like Southampton.

4-3-3 has variations with my personal choice being a 4-1-2-3. I really don't see the need for us to have 2 specialist defensive midfielders when one will do if at least one of the more advanced midfield two is a quality box to box midfielder. In Yaya's case if we compressed the space around him, he'd have less ground to cover and would be far more effective than having to cover vast amounts of space.

I'd play Fernadinho in front of the back four and have Silva & Yaya in front of him with a front 3 of Sergio in the middle flanked by Nasri to the left and Navas to the right. Playing as a unit in this formation I feel would be best for us right now. As always, we should attack as a unit and defend as a unit to compress the playing space. This would always leave us open to the counter-attack but with Clichy and Kompany to provide pace and the speed of thought of Zabs and Nasty, I reckon we'd be as solid as we've ever been whilst being as flair-filled as we've ever been.

I'd start from this basis in all matches and make my adjustments according to who we're playing and where we're playing them. We can't seriously expect to go into matches against the Real's, Barca's & Bayern's of this world and come out with any change by deploying an antiquated 4-4-2 formation. Norwich and the Rags at home yes, but not against teams who have the personnel and a tactician at the helm who can easily counter a 4-4-2.

Moyes is no great tactician, but even he sussed at 4-0 down that he needed to change something during the recent derby. When ManUre went to a 3 man midfield, the pendulum swung in their favour, it was just a blessing that we were already out of sight and able to see the game out.

Wrote eirily similar in another thread, though the players were slightly different under the assumption of a fit Jovetic. Fernandinho at the base, Nasri and Yaya ahead (As I believe they have the best understanding), then Silva and Jovetic flanking Aguero up top.

Only thing is this leaves Negredo out in the cold, and if Dzeko is out in the cold already it leaves him pretty much out of the club. But then someone is always getting dropped, you can't accomodate everyone.

I would get rid of Dzeko and invest in another top quality midfielder. You don't leave Negredo out in the cold but he would need to rotate more.

 

[adrianr]

4-3-3 has variations with my personal choice being a 4-1-2-3. I really don't see the need for us to have 2 specialist defensive midfielders when one will do if at least one of the more advanced midfield two is a quality box to box midfielder. In Yaya's case if we compressed the space around him, he'd have less ground to cover and would be far more effective than having to cover vast amounts of space.

I'd play Fernadinho in front of the back four and have Silva & Yaya in front of him with a front 3 of Sergio in the middle flanked by Nasri to the left and Navas to the right. Playing as a unit in this formation I feel would be best for us right now. As always, we should attack as a unit and defend as a unit to compress the playing space. This would always leave us open to the counter-attack but with Clichy and Kompany to provide pace and the speed of thought of Zabs and Nasty, I reckon we'd be as solid as we've ever been whilst being as flair-filled as we've ever been.

I'd start from this basis in all matches and make my adjustments according to who we're playing and where we're playing them. We can't seriously expect to go into matches against the Real's, Barca's & Bayern's of this world and come out with any change by deploying an antiquated 4-4-2 formation. Norwich and the Rags at home yes, but not against teams who have the personnel and a tactician at the helm who can easily counter a 4-4-2.

Moyes is no great tactician, but even he sussed at 4-0 down that he needed to change something during the recent derby. When ManUre went to a 3 man midfield, the pendulum swung in their favour, it was just a blessing that we were already out of sight and able to see the game out.

Wrote eirily similar in another thread, though the players were slightly different under the assumption of a fit Jovetic. Fernandinho at the base, Nasri and Yaya ahead (As I believe they have the best understanding), then Silva and Jovetic flanking Aguero up top.

Only thing is this leaves Negredo out in the cold, and if Dzeko is out in the cold already it leaves him pretty much out of the club. But then someone is always getting dropped, you can't accomodate everyone.

I would get rid of Dzeko and invest in another top quality midfielder. You don't leave Negredo out in the cold but he would need to rotate more.

Exactly what I would do as well.

 

[Big_Alan]

Dribble and Nellys left foot....Im not having a laugh....He is without doubt one of the best players Ive seen...but he is bloody frustrating..and sometimes I think it might be better if he went... You watch him and for 85 mins he is no better than average,then bang he turns it on and does something amazing.
Maybe it is because he prefers attacking midfield and not chasing back isnt his game but we have enough of those midfielders in Silva Nasri Jovetic..Maybe it is the system and its the managers fault...All I'm saying is at times we need a more mobile defensive midfielder (if thats what we are classing him as)..and at the end of the day it is my opinion that is all......Dont get me wrong I love it when he turns it on against the big teams and he is great to watch.. like I say just my humble opinion.

 

[OB1]

Dribble and Nellys left foot....Im not having a laugh....He is without doubt one of the best players Ive seen...but he is bloody frustrating..and sometimes I think it might be better if he went... You watch him and for 85 mins he is no better than average,then bang he turns it on and does something amazing.

Maybe you need to watch him a bit more closely: average doesn't pass consistently like Yaya or control games like Yaya or....

 

[Exeter Blue I am here]

I'm not blaming him or not rating him as a player, but him in that role in that system is causing us a problem.

I'm gonna be controversial and disagree with the three of you. I don't think Yaya/Dinho is particularly a problem. I think that playing 442, even with a player who's characteristics on the face of it are more suited to playing in that system, will always lead us to problems against teams playing 433 who have technically skilled players who can press high and pass well.

I think the commitment to 442 is based upon an acceptance that you may cede ground in the centre of the park and may at times get overrun, but that you will pose a much more dangerous goal threat because when you attack you have so many options and so much movement. The goals we've scored and the chances we create are a testament to that.

What i'm trying to say is that i'm not convinced another central midfield player with better "legs" for closing down would fare any better in that system. It will work well and work big most of the time, but when it doesn't work it will expose the two central midfield players.

I agreed totally with this a little earlier in the thread, Billy.

This problem is only there in some games - when we play against a 3 man, mobile midfield. It is no problem whatsoever in 3/4 of the games.

Exactly this. We went to West Ham earlier this season and they played 6 across the middle, and yet we ran rings round them. Simple reason, they had a load of huffers and puffers in there and they were managed by that stiff neck inducer, Allardyce. You can identify the teams (and managers) a 4 man midfield is gonna get found wanting against (away from home) before the season even starts. Laudrup, Martinez, Rodgers, Pochettino, Wenger, and rinse and repeat. It's not rocket science and I can't work out why Pellers is being so dogmatic about 4-4-2 in those games

 

[BigOscar]

At the moment, we do have to build the team around him and I do often doubt that he has a consistently positive impact on every game to actually warrant the amount the team has to cater to him. Very few teams are built around one player and when they are, that player offers the kind of devestatingly decisive performances that Yaya can put in about 8 times out of ten, whereas Yaya only does it once every 3 or 4 games. I would be interested to see if we would be better off replacing him with a player (like another Fernandinho) who consistently puts in 8/10 performances as part of the team, rather than Yaya's 4/10 or 10/10 solo performances