You could see Mourinho's eyes light up

[VOOMER]

Like I said earlier in the thread we lined up with 2 banks of 4 when we were without the ball (freeze frame at set pieces when our defensive line is mid way in our own half and you will see it clearly)

If Zaba was wing back why the fuck did he get sucked in on 2 ocassions ?
DD , I know you think we have better than Zaba and we continue to disaggree on that one but even I could not believe how stretched the game had become which made the spectacle so appealing to everyone.
We are guilty of over analysis here.

People like Yaya and Ronaldo make other players / formations look fuckin stupid.Thats what sets them apart.Thats why they were the 2 stand out players on the night.

What a game....

what a game indeed...and what a mad 20 minutes indeed.

I do think we have better than zab but let me tell you, I wished he was at right back instead of Maicon in the first half.

Unless he's well short of fitness, he looks like his legs have gone to me.

But that's another discussion of course, and doubtless one we'll be having on here in due course ;-)

Dave, I was frustrated as you were, so close, but no cigar, but we are still in the building process. That Real team on paper, looked better than ours. Its been together with virtually no change for over 2 years. We are still adding to and improving the squad and we play in a much harder league week by week. I hope we get out of the group, ( i think we will), but the league is still the number one priority and 3-5-2 will work in a lot more games than it doesn't. We are getting there, for Jose and co to jump around like they did at the end, shows how far we have come in 4 years.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Like I said earlier in the thread we lined up with 2 banks of 4 when we were without the ball (freeze frame at set pieces when our defensive line is mid way in our own half and you will see it clearly)

If Zaba was wing back why the fuck did he get sucked in on 2 ocassions ?
DD , I know you think we have better than Zaba and we continue to disaggree on that one but even I could not believe how stretched the game had become which made the spectacle so appealing to everyone.
We are guilty of over analysis here.

People like Yaya and Ronaldo make other players / formations look fuckin stupid.Thats what sets them apart.Thats why they were the 2 stand out players on the night.

What a game....

what a game indeed...and what a mad 20 minutes indeed.

I do think we have better than zab but let me tell you, I wished he was at right back instead of Maicon in the first half.

Unless he's well short of fitness, he looks like his legs have gone to me.

But that's another discussion of course, and doubtless one we'll be having on here in due course ;-)

Dave, I was frustrated as you were, so close, but no cigar, but we are still in the building process. That Real team on paper, looked better than ours. Its been together with virtually no change for over 2 years. We are still adding to and improving the squad and we play in a much harder league week by week. I hope we get out of the group, ( i think we will), but the league is still the number one priority and 3-5-2 will work in a lot more games than it doesn't. We are getting there, for Jose and co to jump around like they did at the end, shows how far we have come in 4 years.

I agree with most of that, fella. I was frustrated because I felt we threw it away, but I'm under no illusions that on another day it would have been a drubbing. And I do agree the league is the priority so i wasnt disheartened for
Long.

I don't dislike the 352 per se, it's just that I'm not convinced we have the right players for it and I'm certainly not convinced we should use it against teams with width. If we are to use it, I'd only use it with clichy and Richards as the wing backs. And I'd use it in games where we are looking to break down defensive teams who have 10 around their own box. Let vinny take their lone forward, let the other 2 centre halves operate quite wide, and have the wing backs utilise this cover to push right on- like against the 10 men of chelsea in the charity shield. When teams line up on the edge of their own box this gets you behind them and gets dangerous balls into the box. Like man utd have been doing for years.

Id be very surprised if it wasn't 4231 again against arsenal. But the manager continually surprises with his set ups/line ups, so who knows ?!?!?!

I know I can't wait, and I expect us to win well.

 

[Shaelumstash]

you're all over the place mate, chucking desperate straw men in willy nilly, yet you steadfastly refuse to address the pertinent point, which was their left flank. Maicon didn't play wing back, he played full back. When zab came on he signalled, then played wing back. And that cost us the game. Space opened up which wasn't there before.

You can throw in lines about 'common sense' and 'fact' as though that makes you right but it doesn't apart from in your own head.

The system changed when zab came in. That's my opinion, not fact, but one I back up with two facts: zab's hand signals and that great yawning elephant In the room gap. Oh , and I'm backed up with the tactics website Zonal Marking, which someone quoted on the first page of the thread. It's his opinion, not fact, but it's an opinion well respected in the football world.

EDIT:

Your "Trump card" all along here has been the "Well respected" Zonal marking website. I've just read the article on this game, and here is a quote lifted directly from his analysis:

"Second half

For the second half, Mancini seemed to opt for something of a hybrid system – a cross between the first half shape, and more of a 3-5-1-1. Maicon and Kolarov were the men providing width on either flank, Gael Clichy more of a left-sided centre-back than a left-back, and Silva pushed into the centre to become a playmaker."

It's all coming crumbling down before your very eyes.

There's no Straw Man here, I'm quoting you. You said we played 4231 in the first half and we didn't change shape until Zaba came on. That's not me making anything up, that's me quoting what you have said on here.

You have also said Dzeko didn't play in midfield, he played up front. So if he was the "1" who was the "3" behind him? I assume you think Barry and Javi Garcia continued as the deep lying "2" so that only leaves Tevez, Yaya and Kolarov as the "3". If that is not your opinion, please tell me differently, I do not want to put words in your mouth, but common sense would say this is your outlook.

The point remains, if you do believe there was no change in system, taking the paragraph above in to account would assume Kolrov and Tevez had the same role but on opposite sides after Dzeko came on. If that's not your opinion then please explain how those players fitted in to the 4231 system.

I think you know you're pissing in the wind here, as I fully expect you to not answer my question and start quoting sources who back you up or whatever. Read your sources in depth, read the manual, and then tell me who was playing where in the 4231 after Dzeko came on. The problem is you can't, because we weren't playing that shape.

hahahahaha

You conveniently forgot the conclusion to the zonal marking article. Come on...let's have it...the one where he talks about the change of system when zab comes on...;-)

Or shall I quote it for you again. Clue. I quoted it on page one of the thread. Another clue. It backs up my original point.

You've shifted your position as the discussion has gone on repeatedly, and your narrative has slyly moved from 'there was no formation change when zab came on' to 'there was a change at half time'. I have always agreed with the point you are leaning on as a straw man- that clichy tucked in a bit and kolorov played deeper than nasri did. But it doesn't change what happened on the flank you keep ignoring.

We went 352. Zab played as wing back instead of the full ball role Maicon adopted. Prior to that dzeko was up front ahead of a line of kolorov, yaya and Tevez. But kolorov remained deeper and Tevez was his usual mobile self. That's what happens in football formations you know; people done just stand on their marked spot. Simple stuff though and not relevant to the discussion.

Keep clinging to your straw man if it makes you feel better, though. The facts remain. The change which you deny happened, the one which zab signalled, the one which changed the whole ahape of the game, the one which opened up the flank for ronaldo, the one which zonal marking documented, lost us the game.

So you ARE saying Tevez played right midfield after Dzeko came on then? You seem to be confusing even yourself here. For the elimination of doubt, please draw out where you thought which players played where in the 4231 after Dzeko came on. You'll soon realise the players on the field don't fit in to that system, and that Tevez was not playing in midfield.

If you read my earlier posts you will notice that i said the defence noticeably dropped deeper after Zaba came on and we put ourselves under pressure. Mancini has made this point himself. This is in contradiction to what you are saying that Zaba was pushed on more than Maicon.

The shape didn't change after Zaba came on, he was like for like for Maicon, we'd changed shape long before that, as the whole board agrees except you. Stick to the comedy and leave the football talk to those who understand the game!

 

[jankos78]

He was in heaven , it's only group stage and he looks like its final, that's give you thinking how big city is in Europe :)

 

[Didsbury Dave]

EDIT:

Your "Trump card" all along here has been the "Well respected" Zonal marking website. I've just read the article on this game, and here is a quote lifted directly from his analysis:

"Second half

For the second half, Mancini seemed to opt for something of a hybrid system – a cross between the first half shape, and more of a 3-5-1-1. Maicon and Kolarov were the men providing width on either flank, Gael Clichy more of a left-sided centre-back than a left-back, and Silva pushed into the centre to become a playmaker."

It's all coming crumbling down before your very eyes.

There's no Straw Man here, I'm quoting you. You said we played 4231 in the first half and we didn't change shape until Zaba came on. That's not me making anything up, that's me quoting what you have said on here.

You have also said Dzeko didn't play in midfield, he played up front. So if he was the "1" who was the "3" behind him? I assume you think Barry and Javi Garcia continued as the deep lying "2" so that only leaves Tevez, Yaya and Kolarov as the "3". If that is not your opinion, please tell me differently, I do not want to put words in your mouth, but common sense would say this is your outlook.

The point remains, if you do believe there was no change in system, taking the paragraph above in to account would assume Kolrov and Tevez had the same role but on opposite sides after Dzeko came on. If that's not your opinion then please explain how those players fitted in to the 4231 system.

I think you know you're pissing in the wind here, as I fully expect you to not answer my question and start quoting sources who back you up or whatever. Read your sources in depth, read the manual, and then tell me who was playing where in the 4231 after Dzeko came on. The problem is you can't, because we weren't playing that shape.

hahahahaha

You conveniently forgot the conclusion to the zonal marking article. Come on...let's have it...the one where he talks about the change of system when zab comes on...;-)

Or shall I quote it for you again. Clue. I quoted it on page one of the thread. Another clue. It backs up my original point.

You've shifted your position as the discussion has gone on repeatedly, and your narrative has slyly moved from 'there was no formation change when zab came on' to 'there was a change at half time'. I have always agreed with the point you are leaning on as a straw man- that clichy tucked in a bit and kolorov played deeper than nasri did. But it doesn't change what happened on the flank you keep ignoring.

We went 352. Zab played as wing back instead of the full ball role Maicon adopted. Prior to that dzeko was up front ahead of a line of kolorov, yaya and Tevez. But kolorov remained deeper and Tevez was his usual mobile self. That's what happens in football formations you know; people done just stand on their marked spot. Simple stuff though and not relevant to the discussion.

Keep clinging to your straw man if it makes you feel better, though. The facts remain. The change which you deny happened, the one which zab signalled, the one which changed the whole ahape of the game, the one which opened up the flank for ronaldo, the one which zonal marking documented, lost us the game.

So you ARE saying Tevez played right midfield after Dzeko came on then? You seem to be confusing even yourself here. For the elimination of doubt, please draw out where you thought which players played where in the 4231 after Dzeko came on. You'll soon realise the players on the field don't fit in to that system, and that Tevez was not playing in midfield.

If you read my earlier posts you will notice that i said the defence noticeably dropped deeper after Zaba came on and we put ourselves under pressure. Mancini has made this point himself. This is in contradiction to what you are saying that Zaba was pushed on more than Maicon.

The shape didn't change after Zaba came on, he was like for like for Maicon, we'd changed shape long before that, as the whole board agrees except you. Stick to the comedy and leave the football talk to those who understand the game!

Zabaleta like for like for Maicon . At Least now youve admitted it amongst all your red herrings.That's what this debate comes down to. You say he was. I say he wasn't.

If he was then zabaleta was the first footballer in the english game to wave his 5 fingers then 3 fingers at the team to show them to stay in the same formation as they were. Maybe they thought zab was coming on as centre forward? Maybe the players had forgotten their formation?

And that great yawning gap which opened up. You know, the one you keep ignoring. You are actually claiming that was purely because we defended deeper?!?!? A comical assertion, bearing in mind we defended deep all game. That didn't change at that point. Defending deeper crwates space in the middle of the park, not right down an entire flank. And zabaleta certainly didn't 'defend deeper', he set about bombing down that line like a, well, like a wing back. Maicon didn't do that. He sat deep doing a full backs job.

Is the penny dropping yet? I really can't paint the picture any clearer.

By the way, continually throwing in insults and jibes doesn't bolster your case, it makes you look like someone with an axe to grind. What's your background in the game to make the comment ' you know nothing about football'? I've never noticed you ever get involved in any of the proper football talk on the forum.

I love your continual Tevez straw man. Keeps the attention away from the real issue.

 

[Shaelumstash]

hahahahaha

You conveniently forgot the conclusion to the zonal marking article. Come on...let's have it...the one where he talks about the change of system when zab comes on...;-)

Or shall I quote it for you again. Clue. I quoted it on page one of the thread. Another clue. It backs up my original point.

You've shifted your position as the discussion has gone on repeatedly, and your narrative has slyly moved from 'there was no formation change when zab came on' to 'there was a change at half time'. I have always agreed with the point you are leaning on as a straw man- that clichy tucked in a bit and kolorov played deeper than nasri did. But it doesn't change what happened on the flank you keep ignoring.

We went 352. Zab played as wing back instead of the full ball role Maicon adopted. Prior to that dzeko was up front ahead of a line of kolorov, yaya and Tevez. But kolorov remained deeper and Tevez was his usual mobile self. That's what happens in football formations you know; people done just stand on their marked spot. Simple stuff though and not relevant to the discussion.

Keep clinging to your straw man if it makes you feel better, though. The facts remain. The change which you deny happened, the one which zab signalled, the one which changed the whole ahape of the game, the one which opened up the flank for ronaldo, the one which zonal marking documented, lost us the game.

So you ARE saying Tevez played right midfield after Dzeko came on then? You seem to be confusing even yourself here. For the elimination of doubt, please draw out where you thought which players played where in the 4231 after Dzeko came on. You'll soon realise the players on the field don't fit in to that system, and that Tevez was not playing in midfield.

If you read my earlier posts you will notice that i said the defence noticeably dropped deeper after Zaba came on and we put ourselves under pressure. Mancini has made this point himself. This is in contradiction to what you are saying that Zaba was pushed on more than Maicon.

The shape didn't change after Zaba came on, he was like for like for Maicon, we'd changed shape long before that, as the whole board agrees except you. Stick to the comedy and leave the football talk to those who understand the game!

Zabaleta like for like for Maicon . At Least now youve admitted it amongst all your red herrings.That's what this debate comes down to. You say he was. I say he wasn't.

If he was then zabaleta was the first footballer in the english game to wave his 5 fingers then 3 fingers at the team to show them to stay in the same formation as they were. Maybe they thought zab was coming on as centre forward? Maybe the players had forgotten their formation?

And that great yawning gap which opened up. You know, the one you keep ignoring. You are actually claiming that was purely because we defended deeper?!?!? A comical assertion, bearing in mind we defended deep all game. That didn't change at that point. Defending deeper crwates space in the middle of the park, not right down an entire flank. And zabaleta certainly didn't 'defend deeper', he set about bombing down that line like a, well, like a wing back. Maicon didn't do that. He sat deep doing a full backs job.

Is the penny dropping yet? I really can't paint the picture any clearer.

By the way, continually throwing in insults and jibes doesn't bolster your case, it makes you look like someone with an axe to grind. What's your background in the game to make the comment ' you know nothing about football'? I've never noticed you ever get involved in any of the proper football talk on the forum.

I love your continual Tevez straw man. Keeps the attention away from the real issue.

Please write down what you think the formation was and who played where when Dzeko came on. I can't ask a more simple question, but you can't answer it because you've got no idea.

The crux of the debate is you think we played the same shape from kick off until Zaba came on. I assure you we didn't and I assure you when you try and draw your team out you'll realise you've got it horribly wrong. Again.

I don't expect you to draw the team out because it will be like admitting you're wrong, not your strong point.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Ha ha. You don't give up, do you?

I'm off away for a wedding now and going straight on to the game. I won't be on the forum until Monday but then I'll have my pc.

Here's a deal. I'll draw up on my pc where every player played in the game, including all subs.

In the meantime id like to see your background in the game to back up your repeated jibes about me knowing nothing about the game.

That's a fair deal and should be final word from each of us. Deal?

 

[Sir peace frog]

its best to stick to the football opinions,abuse does nothing but ruin what was an interesting debate,


imo we went to 352 at or just after the 2nd half started,thats my opinion,near the end of the game real madrid attcked with everybody bar pepe and the other cb(sorry forgot his name),that in my opinion opened up the space,however if im right or wrong i wouldnt resort to abuse,because when that starts you lose the debate and respect.besides you both seem like cnts to me.







:)

 

[Rolee]

Ha ha. You don't give up, do you?

I'm off away for a wedding now and going straight on to the game. I won't be on the forum until Monday but then I'll have my pc.

Here's a deal. I'll draw up on my pc where every player played in the game, including all subs.

In the meantime id like to see your background in the game to back up your repeated jibes about me knowing nothing about the game.

That's a fair deal and should be final word from each of us. Deal?

WTF? I'll show you mine if you show me yours :-p

Is there a chalkboard available anywhere? Do the Guardian do chalkboards for CL games. That would settle this argument.

 

[Sky Blue]

imo we went to 352 at or just after the 2nd half started,thats my opinion,

Many of us think the same....But, Coach Dave knows best so I'll leave it at that.