NHS Crisis

[inbetween]

All the fuss about health tourism, too many managers, etc, etc, is just deflection. Both the Kings Fund and the OBR agree that the level of funding for the NHS has fallen way below what it needs to be simply to keep in line with GDP.

That is still just a magic figure, there is no evidence it will solve anything. In any industry if you need to increase funding you look at where you can save first, total standard practice. Simply throwing money at the NHS is not the be all and end all, if money can be saved before it is injected it should be. I am not saying we should cut though, that is different and is a choice to be made. I am talking about eliminating waste and removing excess practices which the NHS is riddled with. Until that is achieved, why should the taxpayer be burdened when any appreciable funding increase will depreciate in value out as waste. If you run a manufacturing company and your products cost more to make, do you look to make savings or do you spend more money on it?

My mum worked in accounts and she told me they had to introduce a pension ceiling for doctors which was 7 figures and it was soon reached by many of them. These are the same people who are telling us the NHS does not have enough money, the same people striking over salaries and the same people striking because their pension contributions have been brought in line with the private sector. They do a fine job but they should not have benefits someone in the private sector doesn't, if so then what are the merits? There is none of that in the NHS, the bonus, reward, competency based culture does not exist, everyone works in the public sector and they demand better benefits simply because it is public money.

The whole thing is not run as a company would be, it is run on the basis that we have money to use so lets use it or they will take it off us, that money is then directed into waste. The people making those decisions are committees of people on £100k+ a year, commitees that should not even exist. I worked in prescription pricing about 7 years ago, my sub team had 5 people in it and 2 of them were team leaders? That means there were 2 of 5 people on a higher salary band for no reason whatsoever and then we had a couple more managers above them.

I bet if someone tried to draw a structure graph for the NHS it would be impossible because there is no link between care and management, the management structure is what it is and the care structure is what it is. No-one has thought do we actually need this and that, that is because the people deciding are the ones who will probably lose out..

It is a mess and the last thing we should be doing is accepting it for what it is and just throwing money at it, especially when we know that at least 1% of it will end up lining someones pension or being chucked in the bin.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

That is still just a magic figure, there is no evidence it will solve anything. In any industry if you need to increase funding you look at where you can save first, total standard practice. Simply throwing money at the NHS is not the be all and end all, if money can be saved before it is injected it should be. I am not saying we should cut though, that is different and is a choice to be made. I am talking about eliminating waste and removing excess practices which the NHS is riddled with. Until that is achieved, why should the taxpayer be burdened when any appreciable funding increase will depreciate in value out as waste. If you run a manufacturing company and your products cost more to make, do you look to make savings or do you spend more money on making it more expensive for the customer and hope you mop up a profit.?

My mum worked in accounts and she told me they had to introduce a pension ceiling for doctors which was 7 figures and it was soon reached by many of them. These are the same people who are telling us the NHS does not have enough money, the same people striking over salaries and the same people striking because their pension contributions have been brought in line with the private sector. They do a fine job but they should not have benefits someone in the private sector doesn't, if so then what are the merits? There is none of that in the NHS, the bonus, reward, competency based culture does not exist, everyone works in the public sector and they demand better benefits simply because it is public money.

The whole thing is not run as a company would be, it is run on the basis that we have money to use it so lets use it and that is where it disappears into black holes. The people making those decisions are committees of people on £100k+ a year, commitees that should not even exist. I worked in prescription pricing about 7 years ago, my sub team had 5 people in it and 2 of them were team leaders? That means there were 2 of 5 people on a higher salary band for no reason whatsoever and then we had a couple more managers above them.

I bet if someone tried to draw a structure graph for the NHS it would be impossible because there is no link between care and management, the management structure is what it is and the care structure is what it is. No-one has thought do we actually need this and that, that is because the people deciding are the ones who will probably lose out..

I certainly don't disagree that it could be more efficient and that we should eliminate as many inefficiencies as possible. I've said before that there should be an independent commission running it without political interference and that should be tasked with doing just that and have people involved who run or have run big businesses and involve a top-down review of structures, staffing and processes. In other words, what is the best way to provide healthcare in the 21st century, as opposed to the 1950's.

But even then, I suspect there will still be a big funding gap.

 

[M18CTID]

That is still just a magic figure, there is no evidence it will solve anything. In any industry if you need to increase funding you look at where you can save first, total standard practice. Simply throwing money at the NHS is not the be all and end all, if money can be saved before it is injected it should be. I am not saying we should cut though, that is different and is a choice to be made. I am talking about eliminating waste and removing excess practices which the NHS is riddled with. Until that is achieved, why should the taxpayer be burdened when any appreciable funding increase will depreciate in value out as waste. If you run a manufacturing company and your products cost more to make, do you look to make savings or do you spend more money on it?

My mum worked in accounts and she told me they had to introduce a pension ceiling for doctors which was 7 figures and it was soon reached by many of them. These are the same people who are telling us the NHS does not have enough money, the same people striking over salaries and the same people striking because their pension contributions have been brought in line with the private sector. They do a fine job but they should not have benefits someone in the private sector doesn't, if so then what are the merits? There is none of that in the NHS, the bonus, reward, competency based culture does not exist, everyone works in the public sector and they demand better benefits simply because it is public money.

The whole thing is not run as a company would be, it is run on the basis that we have money to use so lets use it or they will take it off us, that money is then directed into waste. The people making those decisions are committees of people on £100k+ a year, commitees that should not even exist. I worked in prescription pricing about 7 years ago, my sub team had 5 people in it and 2 of them were team leaders? That means there were 2 of 5 people on a higher salary band for no reason whatsoever and then we had a couple more managers above them.

I bet if someone tried to draw a structure graph for the NHS it would be impossible because there is no link between care and management, the management structure is what it is and the care structure is what it is. No-one has thought do we actually need this and that, that is because the people deciding are the ones who will probably lose out..

It is a mess and the last thing we should be doing is accepting it for what it is and just throwing money at it, especially when we know that at least 1% of it will end up lining someones pension or being chucked in the bin.

I can't confess to knowing the ins and outs of what goes on at the NHS but while I'm loathe to blame the problems on one particular issue as I believe there are many different factors at play, I think there's a lot of truth in what you've said. I had an experience in 2014 which is partly related to what you posted. I went to my GP as I'd been experiencing pain in my right foot for months, and was eventually referred to a mobile physio unit at Belle Vue just 15 minutes or so walk from my house. I made a few visits to this place over the course of several months and everything went smoothly to the point that the exercises they advised me to do eventually resolved the issue. However, when I was getting ready at home to make my way down to the unit for my final visit (it was May 2014 - I remember it fondly as it was just a few days after we won the league!) somewhat astonishingly a vehicle turned up on my doorstep to give me a lift there. Obviously, this was a simple mistake and they had me incorrectly flagged up as someone who was unfit to make my own way down there which wasn't the case. The driver said that as I was the last pick-up of the day I may as well accept the lift anyway - both there and back. What he told me on the way back shocked me - these vehicles that are used to ferry patients back and forth go for a weekly clean at a company in Trafford Park and according to him this company charges something in the region of £50 a pop. He asked me whether I felt it needed cleaning as it was due in that evening for it's weekly clean. My answer was a resounding no as it was completely spotless. I know this is only a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of money swilling round the NHS but my point is that they're handing out contracts for services that could be acquired for a fraction of the price. I mean, there's a perfectly good car valet place round the corner from my house and they only charge £10 a time.

 

[inbetween]

I certainly don't disagree that it could be more efficient and that we should eliminate as many inefficiencies as possible. I've said before that there should be an independent commission running it without political interference and that should be tasked with doing just that and have people involved who run or have run big businesses and involve a top-down review of structures, staffing and processes. In other words, what is the best way to provide healthcare in the 21st century, as opposed to the 1950's.

But even then, I suspect there will still be a big funding gap.

Indeed and nothing rings more true then with the A&E department near me that had to close, the managers all blamed funding as the reason yet these people are paid £100K+ to appropriate that funding properly. Who is at fault there? Where does the money go if critical, emergency healthcare doesn't survive but a comittee of managers each on £100K+ does?

In my opinion much of this 'crisis' is being engineered on the part of the trusts and unions to damage the current government. There is no denying some crisis exists but no-one is blaming the people who run the NHS and these people are paid very lucratively indeed to do so.

A funding gap will always exist but I think it takes ruthless action to solve the actual problems related to care yet unrelated to money but this will never happen because it is far too big a political hot potato. The managers of these trusts should be looking into it but they don't they just ask for more money and blame the government, that is the culture of the problem.

 

[tshirtman]

In my opinion much of this 'crisis' is being engineered on the part of the trusts and unions to damage the current government. There is no denying some crisis exists but no-one is blaming the people who run the NHS and these people are paid very lucratively indeed to do so.

Absolute Daily Mail nonsense

As someone who has worked in healthcare (NHS & independent) for 16 years I've never seen it so bad. do you think me and other qualified staff will be told what to say to the press and public just to keep our managers happy.

In 2010 we had 35.000 psychiatric nurses, today we have 28.000, theses problems have been building up for years and the government chooses to either bury its head in the sand, or more usually they blame someone else.

A&E staff have told Hunt what he needs to do to cure there crisis but he won't listen because he's a buffoon,
Convalescent homes, remember them? every hospital used to have one, a cheap and cheerful way to stop bed blocking, but that costs money which the Tory's won't spend.

I could go on about how the private sector are creaming off millions from some of the services while providing shocking care but I doubt you'll believe me.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Absolute Daily Mail nonsense

As someone who has worked in healthcare (NHS & independent) for 16 years I've never seen it so bad. do you think me and other qualified staff will be told what to say to the press and public just to keep our managers happy.

In 2010 we had 35.000 psychiatric nurses, today we have 28.000, theses problems have been building up for years and the government chooses to either bury its head in the sand, or more usually they blame someone else.

A&E staff have told Hunt what he needs to do to cure there crisis but he won't listen because he's a buffoon,
Convalescent homes, remember them? every hospital used to have one, a cheap and cheerful way to stop bed blocking, but that costs money which the Tory's won't spend.

I could go on about how the private sector are creaming off millions from some of the services while providing shocking care but I doubt you'll believe me.

Ruthless action could include:
Increase funding for facilities
hire more nurses
pay nurses better

I bet that's what he meant!

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

I can't confess to knowing the ins and outs of what goes on at the NHS but while I'm loathe to blame the problems on one particular issue as I believe there are many different factors at play, I think there's a lot of truth in what you've said. I had an experience in 2014 which is partly related to what you posted. I went to my GP as I'd been experiencing pain in my right foot for months, and was eventually referred to a mobile physio unit at Belle Vue just 15 minutes or so walk from my house. I made a few visits to this place over the course of several months and everything went smoothly to the point that the exercises they advised me to do eventually resolved the issue. However, when I was getting ready at home to make my way down to the unit for my final visit (it was May 2014 - I remember it fondly as it was just a few days after we won the league!) somewhat astonishingly a vehicle turned up on my doorstep to give me a lift there. Obviously, this was a simple mistake and they had me incorrectly flagged up as someone who was unfit to make my own way down there which wasn't the case. The driver said that as I was the last pick-up of the day I may as well accept the lift anyway - both there and back. What he told me on the way back shocked me - these vehicles that are used to ferry patients back and forth go for a weekly clean at a company in Trafford Park and according to him this company charges something in the region of £50 a pop. He asked me whether I felt it needed cleaning as it was due in that evening for it's weekly clean. My answer was a resounding no as it was completely spotless. I know this is only a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of money swilling round the NHS but my point is that they're handing out contracts for services that could be acquired for a fraction of the price. I mean, there's a perfectly good car valet place round the corner from my house and they only charge £10 a time.

Would that be a car valeting service run by those pesky, NHS freeloading, Eastern European chaps?

 

[Tim of the Oak]

That is still just a magic figure, there is no evidence it will solve anything. In any industry if you need to increase funding you look at where you can save first, total standard practice. Simply throwing money at the NHS is not the be all and end all, if money can be saved before it is injected it should be. I am not saying we should cut though, that is different and is a choice to be made. I am talking about eliminating waste and removing excess practices which the NHS is riddled with. Until that is achieved, why should the taxpayer be burdened when any appreciable funding increase will depreciate in value out as waste. If you run a manufacturing company and your products cost more to make, do you look to make savings or do you spend more money on it?

My mum worked in accounts and she told me they had to introduce a pension ceiling for doctors which was 7 figures and it was soon reached by many of them. These are the same people who are telling us the NHS does not have enough money, the same people striking over salaries and the same people striking because their pension contributions have been brought in line with the private sector. They do a fine job but they should not have benefits someone in the private sector doesn't, if so then what are the merits? There is none of that in the NHS, the bonus, reward, competency based culture does not exist, everyone works in the public sector and they demand better benefits simply because it is public money.

The whole thing is not run as a company would be, it is run on the basis that we have money to use so lets use it or they will take it off us, that money is then directed into waste. The people making those decisions are committees of people on £100k+ a year, commitees that should not even exist. I worked in prescription pricing about 7 years ago, my sub team had 5 people in it and 2 of them were team leaders? That means there were 2 of 5 people on a higher salary band for no reason whatsoever and then we had a couple more managers above them.

I bet if someone tried to draw a structure graph for the NHS it would be impossible because there is no link between care and management, the management structure is what it is and the care structure is what it is. No-one has thought do we actually need this and that, that is because the people deciding are the ones who will probably lose out..

It is a mess and the last thing we should be doing is accepting it for what it is and just throwing money at it, especially when we know that at least 1% of it will end up lining someones pension or being chucked in the bin.

There is an efficiency drive to achieve £20billion in savings. This year's efficiencies are 4% that doesn't sound a lot but are very difficult to achieve.

There are certainly some areas that could be more efficient and - for example - efforts in the past to tackle excessive spending on locus and agency workers didn't go far enough. A tougher regime to try to tackle such excesses is now in place.

Billions have been wasted in top down reorganisation driven by politicians and failed IT projects. There are also many thousands of people who work extra time for free.

 

[remember arthur mann]

Billions have been wasted in top down reorganisation driven by politicians and failed IT projects.

All part of the organised wrecking of the NHS.

 

[Len Rum]

In my opinion much of this 'crisis' is being engineered on the part of the trusts and unions to damage the current government.

Deluded.