EU referendum

[grunge]

Erm, Im not strugging to find historical facts at all, Future benefits though are hard to predict.

as for historical benefits I think this covers it quite well ( Nicked from the guardians website )

At last we may get a debate on Britain's relationship with Europe (Leader, 11 January). What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future.
Simon Sweeney
Lecturer in international political economy, University of York

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Erm, Im not strugging to find historical facts at all, Future benefits though are hard to predict.

as for historical benefits I think this covers it quite well ( Nicked from the guardians website )

Google is great isn't it.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

First off, I dont actually believe the EU is that unstable, there is a lot of growth in the EU. there is no doubt it had some major issues ( Greece for example )in the last recession which show it has a way to go before its recession "proof" in the sense that one country shouldn't be able to take it down. the last recession showed that it could happen. that will sort its self out over time.

Britain can go it alone, the question is will we be better or worse off if we do. personally I believe short/mid term we will be far worse off, Long term we may balance out OK.

the fact is, we are the 2nd largest economy in the EU, us exiting will cause the EU/Euro to tumble, that in turn will knock the dollar, so on and so on. There is no question that us exiting will cause major market uncertainty and problems

Eu not unstable! Not sure where you're getting your data from Grunge? It's in the A&E ward at the moment! Even the founders and federalists of the EU openly state that the Euro should never have been introduced without the accompaniment of fiscal and political union - the only growth in the Eu is the rise of the far right and left. You will see a continual shift of business and labour to the eastern countries and when the 'super basket cases' eventually join even more jobs will be lost in Western Europe to cheaper labour.

The government is fortunate that the complexities and ills of the Euro design are beyond the general public as otherwise it would be a landslide to leave - People say but it won't effect the UK but it will have knock on effects to the non Euro zone countries when they inevitably have to integrate further together.

The effects on the Euro and dollar as you state are irrelevant that's just what currencies do and they correct themselves, you do realise that all central banks have been desperately trying to devalue their currencies anyway - the ECB would be delighted to see the Euro devalue as its the only way they have any chance of clawing their way out of stagnation.

 

[grunge]

Eu not unstable! Not sure where you're getting your data from Grunge? It's in the A&E ward at the moment! Even the founders and federalists of the EU openly state that the Euro should never have been introduced without the accompaniment of fiscal and political union - the only growth in the Eu is the rise of the far right and left. You will see a continual shift of business and labour to the eastern countries and when the 'super basket cases' eventually join even more jobs will be lost in Western Europe to cheaper labour.

The government is fortunate that the complexities and ills of the Euro design are beyond the general public as otherwise it would be a landslide to leave - People say but it won't effect the UK but it will have knock on effects to the non Euro zone countries when they inevitably have to integrate further together.

The effects on the Euro and dollar as you state are irrelevant that's just what currencies do and they correct themselves, you do realise that all central banks have been desperately trying to devalue their currencies anyway - the ECB would be delighted to see the Euro devalue as its the only way they have any chance of clawing their way out of stagnation.

Stability of EU was from the growth patterns of the member states. All bar Greece are looking quite healthy growth wise.

as for the recession comments, Here's the IMF's take on it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...tens-to-cause-severe-global-damage-warns-imf/

 

[purplenose]

History shows in some cases like the USA or even the unions that formed many nations it works in others like the USSR it doesn't . Though the USA was in a far more economic and democratic way (civil war aside) the USSR more conquest or revolution. History has examples of nearly anything

But these could be made arguments of communism v capitalism or whatever you chose

You and I know the USA was a very very different thing. It was a sparsely populated huge landmass where apart from arse raping the indigenous Indians the new arrivals were starting with a clean sheet. There was not already a big population having created a history and culture of their own. Therefore apart from the unfortunate red indians there was not masses of people getting very pissed off of having their own cultures eroded and demonized.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

Stability of EU was from the growth patterns of the member states. All bar Greece are looking quite healthy growth wise.

as for the recession comments, Here's the IMF's take on it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...tens-to-cause-severe-global-damage-warns-imf/

I'll pass on those reassuring stats to the 34% unemployed youth in Portugal ( that's after a couple of hundred thousand people have had to migrate for work in the last 2 years). Growth is now being measured from unprecedented lows... Switzerland and Norway are doing well however and if I'm correct are the two richest countries in the eu on a gdp per capita basis - they have somehow found a formula to thrive outside the club, must be just good luck...

I've mentioned before my wife is Swiss and her dad was just staying here and he is a bit passive on most issues but on the mention of the Eu he goes into a fit of abusive language, he voted to curb inward migration 2 years ago in the referendum and Brussels pissed it back in their face....I hope you know what you're voting for...

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

I'll pass on those reassuring stats to the 34% unemployed youth in Portugal ( that's after a couple of hundred thousand people have had to migrate for work in the last 2 years). Growth is now being measured from unprecedented lows... Switzerland and Norway are doing well however and if I'm correct are the two richest countries in the eu on a gdp per capita basis - they have somehow found a formula to thrive outside the club, must be just good luck...

I've mentioned before my wife is Swiss and her dad was just staying here and he is a bit passive on most issues but on the mention of the Eu he goes into a fit of abusive language, he voted to curb inward migration 2 years ago in the referendum and Brussels pissed it back in their face....I hope you know what you're voting for...

It is amazing how the success of the eu is often equated to the success of the U.K. And Germany.....

 

[EalingBlue2]

You and I know the USA was a very very different thing. It was a sparsely populated huge landmass where apart from arse raping the indigenous Indians the new arrivals were starting with a clean sheet. There was not already a big population having created a history and culture of their own. Therefore apart from the unfortunate red indians there was not masses of people getting very pissed off of having their own cultures eroded and demonized.

I am not sure Thomas Jefferson , those loyal to the mother country, the Mexicans , the French, the Spanish, those pushing for a German colony and the purchased Alaskans would necessarily agree to be fair. Germany as well is another conglomerate pulled together as a union for political and economic reasons in the not too distant past

 

[EalingBlue2]

I'll pass on those reassuring stats to the 34% unemployed youth in Portugal ( that's after a couple of hundred thousand people have had to migrate for work in the last 2 years). Growth is now being measured from unprecedented lows... Switzerland and Norway are doing well however and if I'm correct are the two richest countries in the eu on a gdp per capita basis - they have somehow found a formula to thrive outside the club, must be just good luck...

I've mentioned before my wife is Swiss and her dad was just staying here and he is a bit passive on most issues but on the mention of the Eu he goes into a fit of abusive language, he voted to curb inward migration 2 years ago in the referendum and Brussels pissed it back in their face....I hope you know what you're voting for...

Firstly Norway meets nearly all the economic rules that are the main reasons for brexit so Britain won't be a Norway or why would we leave. Norway has a small population and huge natural resources and would be rich in or out. Switzerland has been neutral for centuries and has based its economy on safety and neutrality something that is the very antithesis of Britain for most if not all of the last Millenia . They are awful examples on so many levels to use in the argument as they are utterly different and utterly irellevant . It would take centuries for Britain to be a Switzerland and the removal of about 50 million people and the earning of a 2.5trillion surplus for Britain to become a Norway .

 

[AlgarveBlu]

Firstly Norway meets nearly all the economic rules that are the main reasons for brexit so Britain won't be a Norway or why would we leave. Norway has a small population and huge natural resources and would be rich in or out. Switzerland has been neutral for centuries and has based its economy on safety and neutrality something that is the very antithesis of Britain for most if not all of the last Millenia . They are awful examples on so many levels to use in the argument as they are utterly different and utterly irellevant . It would take centuries for Britain to be a Switzerland and the removal of about 50 million people and the earning of a 2.5trillion surplus for Britain to become a Norway .

Switzerland has based its economy in banking, pharmaceuticals, insurance and many others smaller manufacturing sectors...basically you're saying that the only way to survive outside the eu is if your country contains specific historical, demographic or geographical anomalies?

I really wish I could see the Eu that the remain camp speak of but being on the ground here in Portugal, family in Italy and Switzerland, I simply just don't recognize this Eu that everyone are scared about leaving...