Explosion at MEN Arena/Victoria Station

[davymcfc]

Heartbreaking !

We are going to see a lot of this. All innocent, generous, happy people slaughtered by pure evil. Breaks my heart.

 

[blueinsa]

Idiot of a supposed ex SAS serviceman on Sky News right now.

I wont give him the benefit of repeating what he is saying but it's shameful.

 

[Magicpole]

Religion is immaterial and wholly irrelevant to these people. It is a hook that they can hang their warped sense of whatever it is they feel. If it weren't religion there'd be another ten hooks all lined up!

The assertion that religion is irrelevant to the current manifestation of Islamic terrorism is false. It is the central tenet of their motivation. It is also the case that this phenomenon has its roots in Wahhabi doctrine established by a man of that name in the 17th century, who advocated a return to an Islamic form of government and society ordered around the Quran and the Haddiths.

This form of Islam is currently the structure which Saudi Arabia operates and for the last 30 years they have exported this through funding thousands of Mosques world wide. This is a fundamentalist form of Islam that sees as its ultimate goal, the establishment of a world wide Caliphate.

People dismiss these people as corrupting the Quran. The problem here is that within the Quran and Haddiths, there are texts that actually command efforts to establish a caliphate and to kill or subjugate non believers and the followers of this doctrine point to these writings from the Prophet as justification, and indeed compulsion to seek these ends.

Similar to Christianity, the vast majority of Muslims do not enact or pursue the more extreme aspects of the teachings. If anybody thinks such extreme instructions are not contained within the Bible, they haven't read it. They are there, but due to primarily to the Enlightenment, Reformation and separation of Church and State, we have seen an interpretation of the Bible that ignores the barbaric aspects and focuses upon the nice bits. The sanitised bits. Here are only a few commands from the God of the Bible

Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude

Now, we don't do this, but, if you believed, or were convinced that these are commands from God, you would use them as the justification as Islamic Jihadists do. They point to similar 'divine command' writings and reject those who they see as betraying the true teachings.

Religion and adherence to its writings in a literal sense are 'the' motivation.

The last century has seen the ending of the Ottoman Caliphate after WW1,
The establishment of Isreal, the abortive wars in the Middle East,all of which have contributed to the radical clerics armoury to radicalise and promote violence in the pursuance of a world wide Caliphate. They point to the writings that command Muslims and ignore the condemnation of murder and ill treatment of the children of the book. Us.

Christianity had a reformation, as science proved that the writings of the bible were wrong in relation to how the world is and our place in the universe. Capernicus, Gallileo who showed the earth wasn't the centre of the universe and who was threatened with torture and indeed spent the last 15 years of his life under house arrest. We went from a literal interpretation of the bible to a more well, it's of its time, it's a guide, but, if it was written through divine guidance, the word of God, then who are we to dismiss it? This is what Fundamental Islamics believe. It is not permissible to deny that every word is truly the word of Allah.

We now are in the period of increased violence. Sectarian violence within Islam between Shia and Sunni interpretations. We see our involment in a military context in the Middle East as the the main tool used to redicalise.

They also point to things like Muslim bans in America. Support for an expansionist Isreal as examples of how Muslims are victims. They then point to the book. The book, like the bible contain instructions and indeed commands to violence in the achievement of gods wish for a world wide Caliphate.

The problem for any attempts to reduce tension are hampered by the simple fact that if you believe every word of a holy book is divine, men cannot challenge it. This will see an eternal number of people who, although in an extemely small minority of Muslims, are still in the millions if we look at the 1.2 billion people within this faith.

Religion is the motivator.

It is the justification they use. They actually believe they will be Martyrs. They believe it because the book tells them. 99% do not accept this and say it is a corruption of the Quran. The problem with this is it is in the Quran as those commands are in the bible. The extreme clerics point to them, point to the geopolitical situation and convince young men and women that God wants them to establish a caliphate through any means.

I have attached a link that gives a historic evolution of what we call extreme Islam, but what those within it see as the command of God. If we are to defeat it, contain it,we need to understand where it comes from. Who is promoting it. What are we doing to exasperate it. What we can do to support Muslims who are happy to live in a secular society to combat the radicalisation of the young. What we do with Saudi Arabia in its promotion of Wahhabi doctrine.

My fear is that they will become more sophisticated in designing bombs, as seems to be the case in Manchester. The call to Syria has been replaced with instruction to stay in the west and use any means to strike. We cannot ignore that intelligence from within the British Musim community plays a major factor in our ability to thwart attacks. This has to be recognised and applauded but more importantly supported.

To defeat an idea, a doctrine that you believe is the word of God is impossible. What is possible is reducing the recruitment and this can only be achieved when we remove the recruitment tools by looking to find political solutions to the Middle East. To call out Saudi Arabia and stop wahabi doctrine expansion.

But, even if all that was achieved we will still have people who will reject it unless it includes the world accepting Islam, which won't happen. The reality is increased attacks will be the norm in the west. I can see no other future for us all. Racial hate preachers and their followers need to be tackled, but that will only drive them
underground. Religion and its ability to make reason redundant is the main issue. To deny that is to deny what motivates them. Read the books and tell me there isn't in black and white instructions to act in the way we see today by extremists. It's there. Below is a summary but wider reading is needed to understand what we are up against. It won't make for a pleasant read.

http://www.crf-usa.org/america-resp...rom-1945-to-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden.html

 

[Blue Llama]

Inbetween said "Your last statement suggests that rounding these people up and removing them from our society is wrong and that it would result in more radicalisation. I strongly disagree because you are misunderstanding the dynamics of how in part this begins at the lowest level. The reason radical networks are formed amongst these people is because often one is radicalised who then radicalises others. In a social setting, it is easy to go through with something so terrible with others, it is far more difficult to do it alone. It is also far more difficult to believe in something so terrible when you are not pressured socially into believing it is right."

I think you may have misinterpreted my point. If action is taken against a person which is seen to be wrong that person will receive support from those that know them and those with their own reasons to feel hard done by. On this site a couple of weeks ago a poster received a lot of indignant support because he had bought extra tickets for Wembley and subsequently was banned. Many of the supporters showed their support without knowing any details, some might have known the poster. All I know is that many saw the banning as wrong and wanted to support a wronged blue. Just imagine the reaction if an innocent person was sanctioned in some way because there was just the slightest chance they might be a terrorist. How many who were neutral would see this act as the evidence to support the rantings of a radicaliser?

 

[oakiecokie]

I can be an argumentative bugger at the best of times,but hell why do people persist and try and score brownie points on a sensitive thread like this.
Come on boys and girls ... you`re better than this.

 

[Bluebee2]

Idiot of a supposed ex SAS serviceman on Sky News right now.

I wont give him the benefit of repeating what he is saying but it's shameful.

I couldn't believe what I was watching, unbelievable he was even on the tv

 

[mat]

Idiot of a supposed ex SAS serviceman on Sky News right now.

I wont give him the benefit of repeating what he is saying but it's shameful.

Picked for their narrative. The UK media are not helping the cause by sensationalising a tragedy.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I have a 4-year old grandson who I love dearly but I also really pity him having to grow up in these shocking times!

While not down playing the horror of what happened at the Manchester Arena, my dad at the age of 14 took shelter during a 36 hour period 23/24th December 1940 during the Manchester Blitz, 820 civilians died in that raid, in a war where the estimates of total deaths range from 50 million to more than 80 million.

My father was the only child of my grandmother's second marriage, her first husband died at the Somme along with two of her brothers.

I've no idea what the 21st century holds and I'm too old to have any hope of seeing very much of it, but it would have to go some to match the carnage of the first half of the 20th century.

 

[Xiphos]

Idiot of a supposed ex SAS serviceman on Sky News right now.

I wont give him the benefit of repeating what he is saying but it's shameful.

He sounded better than people spouting crap poetry and people making heart signs with their hands to TV cameras

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Interesting comments attributed to his Imam and i would be interested to know if he reported his concerns to the security services?

The Guardian reported that his mosque had an anti-terror sermon, which most of the people supported. But the Imam also said that a small minority disapproved and actually signed a petition against the sermon. Now what should happen at that point, of course, is that those people should be completely ostracized from the community and told that there is absolutely no place in Islam for support of terrorism. The rest of the community should refuse to recognise them as Muslims and have nothing to do with them. I wonder if this is actually what happened, or was support for terrorism considered a valid albeit minority opinion within the community? I regularly hear stories of people shunned in their communities for getting divorced, reporting domestic violence, going out with a non-Muslim, being gay, or any number of other "transgressions." I wonder how seriously someone expressing support for terrorism is treated in those same communities. The Guardian didn't go into what happened next.

Of course, it's possible that those signing the petition objected to the exact nature of the anti-terror sermon rather than its very existence, but that's not the impression I got from the quotes.