MellowJoe
Well-Known Member
We need ideologies that recognize human nature, in all it's shame, and tries to better it.
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Deleted member 77198
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The banks and the rich and have become the authoritarian despots of current times in the democratic countries we think we live in (we don't really live in democracy!)I think that this, or at least Capitalism in its current form, is currently being seriously questioned across the world and not just by tree hugging tramps. Capitalism worked, but the cracks are starting to show, corporations too big to fail, more powerful than nations, so focussed on profit and growth and to hell with society and the environment.
Communism never worked, Capitalism has worked for a while but wont last forever.
War is one of their biggest economies, there are people who are making BILLIONS from war. There aren't the dozens of millions dying due to it yet like we saw in the last century's big wars but how long until that's the case
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Deleted member 77198
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Has anyone ever watched this:We need ideologies that recognize human nature, in all it's shame, and tries to better it.
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Ancient Citizen
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 26 Jul 2009
- Messages
- 15,710
We certainly do, but we can do without those ideologies that slaughter us in pursuit of that aim.We need ideologies that recognize human nature, in all it's shame, and tries to better it.
jimharri
Moderator
I'll keep that for the Glastonbury thread next year, if you don't mind!..tree hugging tramps...
MellowJoe
Well-Known Member
We certainly do, but we can do without those ideologies that slaughter us in pursuit of that aim.
Well yeah, the social engineering has to be delicate. You have to let the masses catch up.. it is often said that Marx/Engels' ideas are way ahead of their time.
SWP's back
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- 88,250
So numbers wise it wasn't the same. Great totally agree and that's what we were talking about.I said numbers wise it wasn't the same, but the methods used were barbaric.
Point is it has been human nature to be cunts to each other long before communism came along and will unfortunately carry after it is a distant memory
And what connects them more?
They were all homicidal maniacs.
Apart from Castro don't know how he made the list.
Communist ideology didn't require mass murder or tyranny.
These guys were homicidal maniacs without priming.
I have read Das Capital and Mein Kampf and so far have evaded thoughts of murdering millions of dissidents or wiping out the Jews.
But wait!
I'm not a homicidal maniac!
Feel cheated.
It's easy for one to live in a liberal prosperous modern society (having known the ultimate destruction and tragedy that ideologies such as Communism have caused) and read such mantras with skeptical amusement.
It's a lot more challenging to live in a broken (socially and economically) society, without the past to reflect upon and not look to radically change something, as Marx and Engels did... and for the right reasons.
That said, you can see the hatred oozing out of Mein Kampf, its anti-Semitic in its first chapter. I hate the comparisons with it and The Communist Manifesto as they're completely different genres as literature.
In short, I agree with your point about the founders of Communism doing it for the best intentions and latter communist leaders being maniacs, I disagree with you comparing it to Hitlerism and that Communism won't always lead to megalomaniacs and psychopaths gaining leading positions, which I believe it will.
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A statue of Engels and/or commemoration/discussion of him (and Marx) as part of this city is not the same as a celebration of communism, in my view.
Communism is pretty much proven to be a busted flush in terms of being a successful method of running a country/region/economy. Whether that is down to the inherent corruption of humans in power (especially in that sort of system) or it just being hugely flawed, we can probably all agree that it is a complete failure.
That's not to say that capitalism has been proven to be a particularly good system - with the death, poverty and misery it has also visited on millions. However, it is almost certainly the best of a very small bad bunch of alternatives that we have.
But Engels and Marx were a) not involved in the implementation of their theories and the poor/selfish/murderous decisions that were taken when doing this. And b) were two men who, regardless of their personal circumstances, were motivated by a desire to assist a huge section of society that, at the time, were subject to conditions and exploitation that were a stain on society and little more than a disgrace.
A quick bit of research of the conditions that people were living in in areas of Manchester like Angel Meadow (an area that they studied) should be enough to demonstrate to even the most rabid individual that it was probably out of concern for people that they developed their theories. And whilst communism has gone on to be a complete disaster, sympathy for the down trodden and the exploited is still, even now, something that is considered a good thing. As that was their motivation - even though they might have actually been flawed, misguided or downright wrong, I don't see any reason to not recognise their place in this city's history. You could also argue that their mere existence inspired advances in the circumstances of ordinary people, even if that was not what they wanted, as there is little doubt that concessions and changes agreed to by the ruling classes were agreed to in the face, at best, recognition that people writing about the unfairness of conditions had a point, or, at worst, fear of revolution.
If anything, the impact of their writings on the modern history of the world is, to put it mildly, noteworthy, at least. To ignore that would be bizarre.
This is the best post on the thread.
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
I agree.This is the best post on the thread.