John Stones - 2016/17 performances

[Rolee]

No I had to fire the game up. I just saw it and edited my post.

Do you still trust Whoscored's figures?

 

[Tugay One Cup]

***Edit. Actually they had it wrong. He did make an important tackle at the 80th. You're correct.

On the flip side, I did say 'numerous times' ;)

 

[ADegenerate]

Do you still trust Whoscored's figures?

That's a massively broad statement. Every tackle, dual, pass, inception is logged and time stamped. I checked every mark on nico and it was accurately lined up with the game. There's thousands of actions throughout the match so of course it's never going to be 100% accurate and things slip through. But yes, I think it's a great tool. Is nico's rating accurately reflected? Probably not.

 

[Paul Lake's Left Knee]

That's a massively broad statement. Every tackle, dual, pass, inception is logged and time stamped. I checked every mark on nico and it was accurately lined up with the game. There's thousands of actions throughout the match so of course it's never going to be 100% accurate and things slip through. But yes, I think it's a great tool. Is nico's rating accurately reflected? Probably not.

I dont mean this as a insult but it shows that you are a US sports fan, that you seem to heavily rely on stats, in virtually all your sports stats are used heavily to decide who is the best, who was MOTM, who is MVP, who is GOAT, so its understandable, and that is why I dont mean it as an insult mate. There is a lot more to football than stats, for me they are only an indicator of who is the best. For example I think the greatest centre mid in the premier league era is Patrick Vieira, he used to dominate the midfield, however his stats are nowhere near those of players like Scholes, Lampard or Gerrard.

 

[Tugay One Cup]

There is a lot more to football than stats

Because it's not just a sport, it's the beautiful game!

 

[Callum Ramsey]

Wait, is otamendi actually being blamed for john stones having poor games. Look I don't think otamendi is that good a defender especially for someone of his age and experience, but stones has looked bad whomever his partner has been many times this season and before for everton.

Stones has started 17 games in the league at center back for the team and the record is 9 wins 5 defeats 3 draws
Otamendi has started 20 games in the league and the team had 14 wins 4 defeats and 2 draws

There's been 8 games where otamendi has started without stones and in those games the teams' record reads 7 wins 1 draw (wins against bournemouth, palace, burnley x2, watford, arsenal, hull and the one draw being the 2-2 against spurs) team conceding 6 goals

Meanwhile in the 5 games stones has started without otamendi the teams record reads 2 wins(sunderland 2-1, swansea 2-1) 2 draws (southampton 1-1, middlesborough 1-1) 1 defeat (leiceter 4-2) team conceding 8 goals

Ironically in all 4 defeats in the games that otamendi has started guess who his partner was. yep stones. You see the pattern here. So really looking at those stats can you tell me who really is holding the other back. The standout being the 4-0 defeat to everton in which he gave one of the worst defensive performances of the season

Stones has made so many unforced errors that have directly led to goals most notably the back pass in the draw against southampton. How some are still failing to acknowledge his many flaws and going as far as blaming his teammates when the evidence suggests otherwise baffles me. Now stones is 22 and otamendi is 29 so he at the very least has age on his side to eradicate some of those flaws therefore you can be more inclined to excuse them for now while otamendi you feel those rush tackles and aggresive, front-foot style of defending is just how he is and may never change but it would be doing a disservice to otamendi if he gets the blame for how poor stones has been for the team.

( I used squawkwa for these stats)

 

[Rolee]

Wait, is otamendi actually being blamed for john stones having poor games. Look I don't think otamendi is that good a defender especially for someone of his age and experience, but stones has looked bad whomever his partner has been many times this season and before for everton.

Stones has started 17 games in the league at center back for the team and the record is 9 wins 5 defeats 3 draws
Otamendi has started 20 games in the league and the team had 14 wins 4 defeats and 2 draws

There's been 8 games where otamendi has started without stones and in those games the teams' record reads 7 wins 1 draw (wins against bournemouth, palace, burnley x2, watford, arsenal, hull and the one draw being the 2-2 against spurs) team conceding 6 goals

Meanwhile in the 5 games stones has started without otamendi the teams record reads 2 wins(sunderland 2-1, swansea 2-1) 2 draws (southampton 1-1, middlesborough 1-1) 1 defeat (leiceter 4-2) team conceding 8 goals

Ironically in all 4 defeats in the games that otamendi has started guess who his partner was. yep stones. You see the pattern here. So really looking at those stats can you tell me who really is holding the other back. The standout being the 4-0 defeat to everton in which he gave one of the worst defensive performances of the season

Stones has made so many unforced errors that have directly led to goals most notably the back pass in the draw against southampton. How some are still failing to acknowledge his many flaws and going as far as blaming his teammates when the evidence suggests otherwise baffles me. Now stones is 22 and otamendi is 29 so he at the very least has age on his side to eradicate some of those flaws therefore you can be more inclined to excuse them for now while otamendi you feel those rush tackles and aggresive, front-foot style of defending is just how he is and may never change but it would be doing a disservice to otamendi if he gets the blame for how poor stones has been for the team.

(i.e I used squawkwa for these stats)

No.

 

[schfc6]

I dont mean this as a insult but it shows that you are a US sports fan, that you seem to heavily rely on stats, in virtually all your sports stats are used heavily to decide who is the best, who was MOTM, who is MVP, who is GOAT, so its understandable, and that is why I dont mean it as an insult mate. There is a lot more to football than stats, for me they are only an indicator of who is the best. For example I think the greatest centre mid in the premier league era is Patrick Vieira, he used to dominate the midfield, however his stats are nowhere near those of players like Scholes, Lampard or Gerrard.

As @Rolee is saying, and yourself. There is simply no stat for positioning. As one poster put, Rio Ferdinand or Alan Hanson's stats would be way off Otamendi. I don't path ink Alessandro Nesta ever made a tackle. It's positioning that counts in defending.

 

[Callum Ramsey]

No.

Stones biggest problem is who he has next to him. He's still learning his trade and as such should be paired with an experienced older head who can point him in the right direction. Instead he has Otamendi, who is frequently out of position or makes a rash challenge and gets turned, leaving Stones to deal with the aftermath. Quite often you will see Stones shouting instructions to Otamendi when he should actually be getting them.
The talent is clearly there and I am still hopeful it will shine through, it won't with clowns like Otamendi next to him though.

This was the exact quote by someone earlier in the thread

 

[Paul Lake's Left Knee]

As @Rolee is saying, and yourself. There is simply no stat for positioning. As one poster put, Rio Ferdinand or Alan Hanson's stats would be way off Otamendi. I don't path ink Alessandro Nesta ever made a tackle. It's positioning that counts in defending.

Yup, positioning is a vital attribute for a top defender, i said the same about Hanson, he hardly made a tackle, let alone a slide tackle.

 

[schfc6]

Wait, is otamendi actually being blamed for john stones having poor games. Look I don't think otamendi is that good a defender especially for someone of his age and experience, but stones has looked bad whomever his partner has been many times this season and before for everton.

Stones has started 17 games in the league at center back for the team and the record is 9 wins 5 defeats 3 draws
Otamendi has started 20 games in the league and the team had 14 wins 4 defeats and 2 draws

There's been 8 games where otamendi has started without stones and in those games the teams' record reads 7 wins 1 draw (wins against bournemouth, palace, burnley x2, watford, arsenal, hull and the one draw being the 2-2 against spurs) team conceding 6 goals

Meanwhile in the 5 games stones has started without otamendi the teams record reads 2 wins(sunderland 2-1, swansea 2-1) 2 draws (southampton 1-1, middlesborough 1-1) 1 defeat (leiceter 4-2) team conceding 8 goals

Ironically in all 4 defeats in the games that otamendi has started guess who his partner was. yep stones. You see the pattern here. So really looking at those stats can you tell me who really is holding the other back. The standout being the 4-0 defeat to everton in which he gave one of the worst defensive performances of the season

Stones has made so many unforced errors that have directly led to goals most notably the back pass in the draw against southampton. How some are still failing to acknowledge his many flaws and going as far as blaming his teammates when the evidence suggests otherwise baffles me. Now stones is 22 and otamendi is 29 so he at the very least has age on his side to eradicate some of those flaws therefore you can be more inclined to excuse them for now while otamendi you feel those rush tackles and aggresive, front-foot style of defending is just how he is and may never change but it would be doing a disservice to otamendi if he gets the blame for how poor stones has been for the team.

(i.e I used squawkwa for these stats)

I'm not blaming Otamendi for Stones, only really the media are doing that. But Otamedi is so rash he must be near impossible to play with. His positioning is very erratic. He's quite a good defender individually but he never covers and is out of position so often.
Take the Falcao goal, Stones was very poor, but Otamendi wasn't even in shot by the time he chipped Willy. Why was he so far away from the ball? Why was there such a gap through the middle?

Otamendi is the most reactionary defender I have ever seen.

Stones is a work in progress, Otamendi when bad is a car crash. Stones is trying to cut out the mistakes, but Otamendi at 29 years old is still positionally woeful, charges out of position and flys to ground so quickly. Tis used to be Pellegrini doing apparently, now who's fault is it?
Neither are very good currently, but both have good games and bad games. Both are nice on the ball and you could argue Otamendi's passing is more aggressive.
But it's no coincidence that ex pros pick him out. I played centre back for 20 years, played semi pro through my late teens and I can see he's positionally woeful. In a tight compact defence he'd be great. We don't have that.

I thought Stones was pretty decent Tuesday, dealt with deep runners much better than Otamendi, probably because he had Sagna to help. Yes he was at fault for their goal, but a ball that travels that far, effectively down the channel, there's no way Stones should be so far from his partner. Where is Otamendi for that goal?




Look how far away he is, he even slows down to a jog. Positionally woeful and completely unaware.
No effort what so ever to support Stones, he should be busting a gut to cover.
He's not.

 

[Callum Ramsey]

I'm not blaming Otamendi for Stones, only really the media are doing that. But Otamedi is so rash he must be near impossible to play with. His positioning is very erratic. He's quite a good defender individually but he never covers and is out of position so often.
Take the Falcao goal, Stones was very poor, but Otamendi wasn't even in shot by the time he chipped Willy. Why was he so far away from the ball? Why was there such a gap through the middle?

Otamendi is the most reactionary defender I have ever seen.

Stones is a work in progress, Otamendi when bad is a car crash. Stones is trying to cut out the mistakes, but Otamendi at 29 years old is still positionally woeful, charges out of position and flys to ground so quickly. Tis used to be Pellegrini doing apparently, now who's fault is it?
Neither are very good currently, but both have good games and bad games. Both are nice on the ball and you could argue Otamendi's passing is more aggressive.
But it's no coincidence that ex pros pick him out. I played centre back for 20 years, played semi pro through my late teens and I can see he's positionally woeful. In a tight compact defence he'd be great. We don't have that.

I thought Stones was pretty decent Tuesday, dealt with deep runners much better than Otamendi, probably because he had Sagna to help. Yes he was at fault for their goal, but a ball that travels that far, effectively down the channel, there's no way Stones should be so far from his partner. Where is Otamendi for that goal?

I don't disagree with any of your criticisms of otamendi and as I've noted myself he's very rush in his approach play. But looking at those stats that I presented, it's clear to me that otamendi's style to defending suits the way that pep seems to want the team to defend. The team is yet to lose a game when otamendi has started without stones as his partner and that must mean something. I'm not gonna look into much of otamendi's game against monaco as he often had to be covering for fernandinho all game who vacated from his position countless times.

Meanwhile stones has this habit of defending where he tends to drop off a lot or wait till its to late to approach an attacker. When you mix that with a team that has silva, de-bruyne and yaya ahead of you who all want to be on the front-foot and pressure from the front, its a recipe for disaster. Just go back and watch the games against arsenal and spurs where kolarov and otamendi were the starters and the team dominated both games and created numerous chances as a result of the way both of them approach defending which seems to suit the team most. I trust kolarov and otamendi starting in the current system going forward more than I do with stones and anyone else

 

[ADegenerate]

I dont mean this as a insult but it shows that you are a US sports fan, that you seem to heavily rely on stats, in virtually all your sports stats are used heavily to decide who is the best, who was MOTM, who is MVP, who is GOAT, so its understandable, and that is why I dont mean it as an insult mate. There is a lot more to football than stats, for me they are only an indicator of who is the best. For example I think the greatest centre mid in the premier league era is Patrick Vieira, he used to dominate the midfield, however his stats are nowhere near those of players like Scholes, Lampard or Gerrard.

No offense taken at all. What you say is spot on and it's true. I've never played the game and didn't even know the rules of the game until 2009. Like Pep I'm just here to learn :). By the way I'm just now reading Pep Confidential and he likes to utilize stats and analytics so there's definitely a place for it. I wonder if Pep browses whoscored? I'm guessing he does because I think he rates otamendi and so do they :P

 

[OrigamiNinja]

Wait, is otamendi actually being blamed for john stones having poor games. Look I don't think otamendi is that good a defender especially for someone of his age and experience, but stones has looked bad whomever his partner has been many times this season and before for everton.

Stones has started 17 games in the league at center back for the team and the record is 9 wins 5 defeats 3 draws
Otamendi has started 20 games in the league and the team had 14 wins 4 defeats and 2 draws

There's been 8 games where otamendi has started without stones and in those games the teams' record reads 7 wins 1 draw (wins against bournemouth, palace, burnley x2, watford, arsenal, hull and the one draw being the 2-2 against spurs) team conceding 6 goals

Meanwhile in the 5 games stones has started without otamendi the teams record reads 2 wins(sunderland 2-1, swansea 2-1) 2 draws (southampton 1-1, middlesborough 1-1) 1 defeat (leiceter 4-2) team conceding 8 goals

Ironically in all 4 defeats in the games that otamendi has started guess who his partner was. yep stones. You see the pattern here. So really looking at those stats can you tell me who really is holding the other back. The standout being the 4-0 defeat to everton in which he gave one of the worst defensive performances of the season

Stones has made so many unforced errors that have directly led to goals most notably the back pass in the draw against southampton. How some are still failing to acknowledge his many flaws and going as far as blaming his teammates when the evidence suggests otherwise baffles me. Now stones is 22 and otamendi is 29 so he at the very least has age on his side to eradicate some of those flaws therefore you can be more inclined to excuse them for now while otamendi you feel those rush tackles and aggresive, front-foot style of defending is just how he is and may never change but it would be doing a disservice to otamendi if he gets the blame for how poor stones has been for the team.

( I used squawkwa for these stats)

You must have realised by now that there is a tendency on here to always blame someone else if a player isnt up to scratch? Typically it happens when we have spent a lot of money on a player therefore they must be good and it is someone elses fault that they are not performing. Mangala received this treatment for a while until it was finally accepted that it wasnt someone elses fault, he was just shit. Stones is far from shit but he has major flaws in his game, some of us recognise this (and get grief from others for saying it) while others will tow the party line of him being world-class but let down by his team-mates.

 

[Rolee]

You must have realised by now that there is a tendency on here to always blame someone else if a player isnt up to scratch? Typically it happens when we have spent a lot of money on a player therefore they must be good and it is someone elses fault that they are not performing. Mangala received this treatment for a while until it was finally accepted that it wasnt someone elses fault, he was just shit. Stones is far from shit but he has major flaws in his game, some of us recognise this (and get grief from others for saying it) while others will tow the party line of him being world-class but let down by his team-mates.

Speaking just for myself here but I'm more tolerant of Stones simply because he's still learning the game, less tolerant of Otamendi because at his age he should know better.

 

[Thaksinssoldier]

It should be Otamendi providing the discipline as the senior defender, not the other way round. If Otamendi needs someone to babysit him at 29 years of age that's a major problem.

So you are saying we should expect a guy who's played this way his entire career to change his game just to accomodate Stones development? Sorry that's utter nonsense.

The cold fact is if John Stones name was Matija Nastasic, he'd be vilified on here. But because he's English he's been given far, far too much slack. The guy needs to up his game, because he'll have an hour long reel come end of season of goals he's cost us and mistakes at this rate.

 

[Rolee]

So you are saying we should expect a guy who's played this way his entire career to change his game just to accomodate Stones development? Sorry that's utter nonsense.

The cold fact is if John Stones name was Matija Nastasic, he'd be vilified on here. But because he's English he's been given far, far too much slack. The guy needs to up his game, because he'll have an hour long reel come end of season of goals he's cost us and mistakes at this rate.

Give over. When you have a centre back pairing the senior centre back should lead by example, how the fuck is that nonsense?

As for him being English, like you I'm Irish so why would I care if he's English or not?

 

[Dax777]

Give over. When you have a centre back pairing the senior centre back should lead by example, how the fuck is that nonsense?

As for him being English, like you I'm Irish so why would I care if he's English or not?

Perhaps you are a fan of all things English :p

 

[City_Sean]

Speaking just for myself here but I'm more tolerant of Stones simply because he's still learning the game, less tolerant of Otamendi because at his age he should know better.

Agree, Otamendi is 29 and has played a vast amount more than Stones. His performance the other night was utterly woeful.

 

[schfc6]

You must have realised by now that there is a tendency on here to always blame someone else if a player isnt up to scratch? Typically it happens when we have spent a lot of money on a player therefore they must be good and it is someone elses fault that they are not performing. Mangala received this treatment for a while until it was finally accepted that it wasnt someone elses fault, he was just shit. Stones is far from shit but he has major flaws in his game, some of us recognise this (and get grief from others for saying it) while others will tow the party line of him being world-class but let down by his team-mates.

Likewise, Otamendi seems to be defended and his partner blamed. Otamendi has been positionally awful, cost us plenty of goals regardless of partner.
Kompany + Demichellis, Otamendi or Managala all offered a solid defence. Take Kompany away and we never look good.

I'm prepaired to give both Otamendi and Stones a chance when we have top level full backs.
Stones & Otamendi both look better on the right hand side, normally with Sagna at rightback.

They both have clear qualities and some failings. I think Stones' faults are easier to iron out. Otamendi's fault seems totally ingrained in him.