Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[i kne albert davy]

Hopefully the the next thousand years at least we don't want to be involved in the shambles across the channel again,

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Who's doing that?
Most Remainers are not supporting the Government because they believe the Government are going to cause the country harm.

What has caused us harm over recent years is relinquishing more control to faceless bureaucrat's in Brussels who spend more time trying to explain why they are important for greater good of Europe, whilst simultaneously feathering their own nests.

 

[Hoghead]

That is why remainers remain remainers.

Err.......no!

 

[smudgedj]

Yes, it gives geniuses and fools the equal right to vote.

Why so sad and angry? You should be enjoying your hard won democratic right to protest against democracy.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Why so sad and angry? You should be enjoying your hard won democratic right to protest against democracy.

Well, I have to admit you do have the moral high ground....

Stay classy Brexiters.

 

[smudgedj]

Well, I have to admit you do have the moral high ground....

Stay classy Brexiters.

I know it's fucking terrible, ellipsis only use three dots, there is no need for more. I mean how are these people allowed to vote.

Anyway you would think the EU would have an ethical foreign policy respecting peoples self determination.

Some good news, it looks like the navy blue passports may well be making a come back.

 

[i kne albert davy]

What's to rejoice about I've only just renewed that crappy red European Union thing,just as well us Brits will never be allowed to travel in Europe again.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I know it's fucking terrible, ellipsis only use three dots, there is no need for more. I mean how are these people allowed to vote.

Anyway you would think the EU would have an ethical foreign policy respecting peoples self determination.

Some good news, it looks like the navy blue passports may well be making a come back.

The death of conscripts, just doing what they were forced to, should never be rejoiced. As a former military man, I would have thought that was a view you understood and sympathised with - or did you prefer shooting sitting ducks?

 

[smudgedj]

What's to rejoice about I've only just renewed that crappy red European Union thing,just as well us Brits will never be allowed to travel in Europe again.

I feel for you, I have to renew mine this year as well. Seriously bad timing.

 

[cibaman]

So freedom of movement stays?

Not in its present form, no. But abolishing freedom of movement was just one "bedrock" of the Leave campaign. We were also promised a continuing free trade deal with the EU courtesy of German car manufacturers and French cheese and wine producers. Its only since the referendum that abolishing freedom of movement has turned into the one issue where no compromises are permissible. As long as it stays that way I feel perfectly entitled to not "get behind" a government which in my opinion is heading in the wrong direction.

 

[Vic]

Now we've a row with pro Brexiter MPs walking out of the parliamentary committee for the exit because its (majority) report is criticising the government for having done no assessment of what "no deal" would mean (apparently because this would mean that May's "no deal is better than a bad deal" ain't necessarily so and they can't cast doubt on that).

The draft report was based on the evidence given by David Davis, who ended up admitting that he had not calculated the cost of not having a deal with the EU.

Davis told the committee: “Much of this is about mitigation. Any forecast that you make depends on the mitigation. As a result, it is rather otiose to do the forecast before you have concluded what mitigation is possible.”

So we know it would be economically bad but the government can't tell us how bad - because they haven't a clue what they could do to make it less bad.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Now we've a row with pro Brexiter MPs walking out of the parliamentary committee for the exit because its (majority) report is criticising the government for having done no assessment of what "no deal" would mean (apparently because this would mean that May's "no deal is better than a bad deal" ain't necessarily so and they can't cast doubt on that).

The draft report was based on the evidence given by David Davis, who ended up admitting that he had not calculated the cost of not having a deal with the EU.

Davis told the committee: “Much of this is about mitigation. Any forecast that you make depends on the mitigation. As a result, it is rather otiose to do the forecast before you have concluded what mitigation is possible.”

So we know it would be economically bad but the government can't tell us how bad - because they haven't a clue what they could do to make it less bad.

We dont know it would economically bad. The report deoesnt say that does it. No one knows. Stop twisting things and making stuff up to suit your negative pessimistic anti brexit agenda.

 

[sir baconface]

Now we've a row with pro Brexiter MPs walking out of the parliamentary committee for the exit because its (majority) report is criticising the government for having done no assessment of what "no deal" would mean (apparently because this would mean that May's "no deal is better than a bad deal" ain't necessarily so and they can't cast doubt on that).

The draft report was based on the evidence given by David Davis, who ended up admitting that he had not calculated the cost of not having a deal with the EU.

Davis told the committee: “Much of this is about mitigation. Any forecast that you make depends on the mitigation. As a result, it is rather otiose to do the forecast before you have concluded what mitigation is possible.”

So we know it would be economically bad but the government can't tell us how bad - because they haven't a clue what they could do to make it less bad.

Not difficult to see why the Jeremiahs jump on the "no deal" comment. It was the watershed moment when the government signalled it would not be held to ransom by rag-bag opportunists at home and abroad.

 

[mcfc1632]

If you want to give up the will to live then read this...

Now Labour must heal the wounds of Brexit – and salvage a fairer future

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...heal-wounds-of-brexit-ed-miliband-hilary-benn

The only thing to commend this tosh is this post in the comments section....

• “All of us who care about a progressive future for Britain must not let the future be decided between the right and extreme right.”

And yet that is precisely what you did.

The referendum posed a stupid question “Do you wish to leave the EU?” – stupid because, wrapped up in that ostensibly simple formula, there were a whole host of nuanced propositions, the response to which depended on the level of knowledge, understanding and concern that few in this country have. Individual voters, forced to answer with a single cross, had to make a subjective guess as to what the question meant when the only intelligent response to the question was “what do you mean by leave the EU?” but there was no box for that. The “debate” that preceded the vote, so far from clarifying what the question was meant to mean became a circus of lies, distortions, prevarications and misrepresentations aimed at polarising and weaponising people’s legitimate but mostly unfocused concerns.

This very article acknowledges that when you say –

“We heard repeatedly from people who voted Leave because of a deep sense that the country wasn’t working for them, and that politics hadn’t been providing good enough answers for a long time.”

In short, to many, it was a protest vote aimed mostly at the wrong target. They had been blatantly lied to for years, the EU used as a scapegoat for UK politicians’ feckless incompetence, their frustration – properly belonging at Westminster’s door - used against them by a corrupt and owned media and a handful of morally bankrupt carpetbaggers.

This stupid question thus received an answer so objectively incoherent that it could only be of value to those who wished to use it disreputably to justify their vested interests. To paraphrase Humpty Dumpty, the result meant what they wanted it to mean, neither more nor less. The question was who was to be master. And the only answer of which we could be sure was it wasn’t us, the poor hapless citizens of the UK. We’re just the cannon-fodder.

It is understandable why the dishonest, the disreputable and the dysfunctional on the right of our politics made the result mean what they wanted it to mean. It is beyond understanding why Labour MPs – people like you who, from your lofty heights, prattle condescendingly about listening to the people and being their protector - were so determined to go along with their abuse of the democratic ideal and process. As MPs, you were duty bound to serve the national interest. Each of you. Yet under the command of a leader whose authority you do not even respect, you set aside your duty to the nation, set aside your judgment, set aside your consciences and walked again and again into the lobby with the Tories knowing that you were indulging in a fraud on reason and democracy. It is beyond understanding. It is beyond decency.

Maybe when you have found the decency to apologise and atone, I will be able to recover some respect for you and your party. Given the self-regarding arrogance of this article, I am not expecting any time soon. You, each of you, sold this country out. You sold our children out. And with it you gave up your right to be listened to as you now purr your weasel words of reconciliation. Appease your own consciences if you can. You have lost my trust. You have lost my respect. I cannot and will not hear you lecture me on how to heal the body that you so cynically helped to mug.
..........................

That is why remainers remain remainers.

"That is why remainers remain remainers."

Fair enough - I have mentioned many times and you have a agreed, that you are still fighting the pre-23/06 battle and are unable/unwilling to move on.

That is also why when those of us that are seeking to discuss the way forward / best outcomes with regard to the impending negotiations find that we get bogged down with Remainer responses that are pre-23/06 obsessed and largely not relevant to the unfolding events of 2017-19

 

[Len Rum]

Not difficult to see why the Jeremiahs jump on the "no deal" comment. It was the watershed moment when the government signalled it would not be held to ransom by rag-bag opportunists at home and abroad.

Ha Ha, the facts are a drag to you mate aren't they?
"No deal is better than a bad deal", when we haven't even analysed the impact of no deal!
YCNMIU Jeff.
Keep yourself wrapped up in that red, white and blue (stars and stripes) flag.

 

[mcfc1632]

I think the best deal for Great Britain would be a "Norway" type deal, so I'll get behind them when they go for that.

IMO, this post - which I am not specifically criticising - demonstrates where there is a seeming total lack of understanding of where we are on the Remain side with regard these negotiations.

There are no offerings from the EU towards the UK - there is not a shelf of options, including a 'Norway offer' that the UK is being invited to peruse and select from.

The outcome that the EU wants is akin to Fumble's - that a 'Bobby Ewing moment' is created - and we can all wake up and all this never happened. They want nothing less than the UK to be forced back into the fold, with the opportunity being there to ensure that it is on worse terms than before, through the removal of certain 'opt-outs'.

They want a continuation of our contributions and they want a continuation of our impotency in effecting changes to their direction. They want to drag out these negotiations playing hard-ball on the 'exit bill' until events happen in the UK that lead to the opportunity for Brexit to be abandoned and then they can then magnanimously allow us to withdraw the A50 notice and carry on.

That is clearly their strategy as they enter into the negotiations and their confidence will be hugely bolstered by the continuous moaning and undermining they see across the UK and the direct machinations of their acolytes at Westminster.

So far they will have been disappointed as there have already been a few cards, including the 'veto amendment', played which have not gone their way. The tough prospect facing the UK negotiating team though is that the EU need to only win one of these events and there will be more to come, and they will then be able to successfully control the outcomes in their favour.

When I posted on the negotiation options some days ago I pointed out that there is a need for the UK to face the EU off by having a viable walk-away option, along with the strength of will to invoke.

That is nothing to do with, as Vic portrayed it, a scorched earth policy. It is a simple and effective response to the position taken by the EU - and a negotiating option needed by the UK purely because of the EU's intransigence.

They are not adopting any position other than 'do it our way' or offering any middle ground. They just want us to 'give' on the money commitment - money they so desperately need, which would then remove their biggest risk and position them to play even harder-ball.

There is little prospect, from a negotiating viewpoint, that they will change their stance at all - unless they face a 'game-changer' - which is what a viable walk-away option would be. I predict nothing will happen until that card is played and if the EU acolytes are successful it never will be.

They have failed with their 'veto amendment' which would have allowed the EU to kick everything into the long grass until we 'gave in. But diehard Remainers need not fear - they are back with it again dressed up a bit differently. The Labour PM wannabe Hilary Benn, is now using his role as chair of the Brexit committee to 'require' the UK team to 'prove' that a no deal is better than a bad deal - just the same undermining attempt really - although of course because, like the term 'meaningful vote', it sounds so reasonable, many will be suckered and not see it for what it is.

In summary, there never will be any offering / options put to the UK by the EU until and unless the UK are able to play a 'game-changing' card - this is down to EU intransigence, supported by their acolytes in the UK - not Theresa May and her team.

As I have previously said, if Theresa May is genuinely committed, or unless there is a viable walk-away option deployed, I can see this going to 2019 with then May making leaving the EU the central plank of a Conservative manifesto for the 2020 GE. Without the walk-away option available, IMO, that will actually be our best chance of actually ever leaving.

 

[mcfc1632]

Not supporting the government isn't unpatriotic, but hoping for a bad outcome and constantly belittling your own country is

Correct - the Remainers feel that if they can label Leaver views as stating that Remainers are unpatriotic it is some kind of 'victory'.

Whether a Leave of Remain voter, what should be supported, IMO, is the UK as it enters into negotiations the outcome(s) of which are of fundamental importance to our nation's future generations

 

[blueinsa]

Yes, it gives geniuses and fools the equal right to vote.

Condescending as usual.

What you dont get now and didn't get back when the vote happened is that the majority of people in this country now are sick and tired of the self proclaimed High brow elite like yourself and its the elitist, i know better attitude that is your downfall.

You lost, get over it, get used to it because i honestly dont see the likes of you and like minded metropolitan elitists ever winning a meaningful vote again in this country.

I can see why you have such love for those in charge of the EU as they share the same condescension and patronising style you espouse on here but the game is up, you've been sussed and the power is no longer with you.

So you keep telling yourself what a genius you are and how foolish the rest of us are because like your vote, it means absolutely fuck all!

 

[sir baconface]

Ha Ha, the facts are a drag to you mate aren't they?
"No deal is better than a bad deal", when we haven't even analysed the impact of no deal!
YCNMIU Jeff.
Keep yourself wrapped up in that red, white and blue (stars and stripes) flag.

"Facts" in a Rafa-esque way you mean?

It was a statement that sent out a pre-negotiation warning. "We're not going down on bended knees to beg for membership of the single market, so don't fcuk with us". It gave many people a much-needed jolt, not least our homegrown would-be hijackers.

If pedants want to snivel over the entrails, let them carry on.

 

[Len Rum]

IMO, this post - which I am not specifically criticising - demonstrates where there is a seeming total lack of understanding of where we are on the Remain side with regard these negotiations.

There are no offerings from the EU towards the UK - there is not a shelf of options, including a 'Norway offer' that the UK is being invited to peruse and select from.

The outcome that the EU wants is akin to Fumble's - that a 'Bobby Ewing moment' is created - and we can all wake up and all this never happened. They want nothing less than the UK to be forced back into the fold, with the opportunity being there to ensure that it is on worse terms than before, through the removal of certain 'opt-outs'.

They want a continuation of our contributions and they want a continuation of our impotency in effecting changes to their direction. They want to drag out these negotiations playing hard-ball on the 'exit bill' until events happen in the UK that lead to the opportunity for Brexit to be abandoned and then they can then magnanimously allow us to withdraw the A50 notice and carry on.

That is clearly their strategy as they enter into the negotiations and their confidence will be hugely bolstered by the continuous moaning and undermining they see across the UK and the direct machinations of their acolytes at Westminster.

So far they will have been disappointed as there have already been a few cards, including the 'veto amendment', played which have not gone their way. The tough prospect facing the UK negotiating team though is that the EU need to only win one of these events and there will be more to come, and they will then be able to successfully control the outcomes in their favour.

When I posted on the negotiation options some days ago I pointed out that there is a need for the UK to face the EU off by having a viable walk-away option, along with the strength of will to invoke.

That is nothing to do with, as Vic portrayed it, a scorched earth policy. It is a simple and effective response to the position taken by the EU - and a negotiating option needed by the UK purely because of the EU's intransigence.

They are not adopting any position other than 'do it our way' or offering any middle ground. They just want us to 'give' on the money commitment - money they so desperately need, which would then remove their biggest risk and position them to play even harder-ball.

There is little prospect, from a negotiating viewpoint, that they will change their stance at all - unless they face a 'game-changer' - which is what a viable walk-away option would be. I predict nothing will happen until that card is played and if the EU acolytes are successful it never will be.

They have failed with their 'veto amendment' which would have allowed the EU to kick everything into the long grass until we 'gave in. But diehard Remainers need not fear - they are back with it again dressed up a bit differently. The Labour PM wannabe Hilary Benn, is now using his role as chair of the Brexit committee to 'require' the UK team to 'prove' that a no deal is better than a bad deal - just the same undermining attempt really - although of course because, like the term 'meaningful vote', it sounds so reasonable, many will be suckered and not see it for what it is.

In summary, there never will be any offering / options put to the UK by the EU until and unless the UK are able to play a 'game-changing' card - this is down to EU intransigence, supported by their acolytes in the UK - not Theresa May and her team.

As I have previously said, if Theresa May is genuinely committed, or unless there is a viable walk-away option deployed, I can see this going to 2019 with then May making leaving the EU the central plank of a Conservative manifesto for the 2020 GE. Without the walk-away option available, IMO, that will actually be our best chance of actually ever leaving.

The problem with that post mate is that it all flows from your second paragraph which is err......wrong.
"There are no offerings from the EU to the UK" - that's because negotiations haven't started yet!
Anyway enjoy your holiday in Margate was it?, oh no Cyprus, nice part of the EU that ( albeit as a de facto divided island)!