Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

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If you take the emotion out of it, it is a simple question: Do you want to control your own destiny, warts and all, or do you want your destiny tied to the vagaries of over two dozen other disparate countries over whom you have almost zero control?

Unwinding any system, and the change required to do it, is almost always going to be considered more difficult and stressful than hanging your hat on the status quo and accepting your future as a fait accompli. While nationalism has become co-opted and bastardized into something to be feared, it shouldn't be feared, but embraced....but not in the manner in which it has been co-opted. Accordingly, before speaking n those terms, one has to return to the simpler, more refined definition of nationalism.

IF Britain can, as it has fought to do for millennia, stand on its own two feet, it should. It should embrace the democratic process and all it entails. It should return the power of the country to the people who have never seriously had it, and it should embrace British ingenuity, ability to work hard and make the best products in the world, and spread its own net far and wide to become equal partners with the next generation of trading partners, while seeking to maintain its relationships with historical partners. Britain should never beg for trade, nor should it bow to pressure to be a subservient partner. That said, it should also never seek to dominate a partnership, nor leverage a partner for lopsided gain.

A new paradigm in capitalism is needed in the world IF we are ever going to succeed in maintaining and growing the global economy, and serving the needs of its seven billion plus population. It is all well and good siphoning off the riches of earth to the highest bidder, but then we need wars to redress balances, and revolutions to overthrow tyrants. Both things should be things of the past, events from which we have already learned, and to which we should have no need to return. Britain has an opportunity. The only question now is will it take that opportunity or will it squander it. The cynical money will be on squander, and it may even be the smart money, but I have to hope that one day, a nation with the history, intelligence and will that zbritain surely has, will lead the world away from the abyss to which it is inexorably marching and towards a brighter, more egalitarian and democratic future, where the needs of people are placed ahead of the need for profit, but also where profit is not a dirty word but a positive statement of worth for all involved in its creation.

I live in hope.
 
Turned into a online counselling session this as Fumble and Len just reassure each other they are right over and over and over again.
That's exactly how I have seen it over the last few pages. It is like some 'mutual reassurance society' with a membership of 2

Like Damocles said a few pages ago - they talk to themselves rather than other people
 
That's exactly how I have seen it over the last few pages. It is like some 'mutual reassurance society' with a membership of 2

Like Damocles said a few pages ago - they talk to themselves rather than other people
th
 
goo.gl/aCF8NU
If it helps keep the thread shorter, posts that say "get on with it" when the argument is about how are pointless. And no-one's moaning now about the result, just about the consequences - "not an easy ride" hardly cuts it.

goo.gl/aCF8NU
The fact that a lot of remainers seem to think they know exactly what the consequences of leaving will be, when in fact nobody can be certain what the outcome will be. The only certainty would have been voting to stay in, as it would have been a mandate for Europe to impose more of the same.
 
The vindictiveness will get sorted out and there will be (almost?) free trade and there will be a passport border, like always. As for "freedom of movement," that can be sorted on one day with a simple passport - no visa system.

All this talk of the EU being a big badass organization is a joke. There are a bunch of leftie liberals who will fold like a cheap tent as soon as social issues are raised. Can't believe it is all going to be a massive change over time. There may be some initial "shock," because everyone has to save some face, but beyond that MONEY, MONEY, MONEY is the only issue. Britain is the 5th largest economy in the world. If you think EU doesn't want some of that action, you're crazy!
No need to worry about us mate.
We're in the EU for another five years ( two,Article 50 then another three transition phase to finalize a deal).
After that we'll probably retain close ties with the EU probably as an associate member (or something like that)but able to trade with the rest of the world and buy your lovely steroid steaks and chlorine chicken!
 
No need to worry about us mate.
We're in the EU for another five years ( two,Article 50 then another three transition phase to finalize a deal).
After that we'll probably retain close ties with the EU probably as an associate member (or something like that)but able to trade with the rest of the world and buy your lovely steroid steaks and chlorine chicken!
That's your new mantra. So I think we can say you've moved on in your grieving process. Well done :-)
 
If you take the emotion out of it, it is a simple question: Do you want to control your own destiny, warts and all, or do you want your destiny tied to the vagaries of over two dozen other disparate countries over whom you have almost zero control?

Unwinding any system, and the change required to do it, is almost always going to be considered more difficult and stressful than hanging your hat on the status quo and accepting your future as a fait accompli. While nationalism has become co-opted and bastardized into something to be feared, it shouldn't be feared, but embraced....but not in the manner in which it has been co-opted. Accordingly, before speaking n those terms, one has to return to the simpler, more refined definition of nationalism.

IF Britain can, as it has fought to do for millennia, stand on its own two feet, it should. It should embrace the democratic process and all it entails. It should return the power of the country to the people who have never seriously had it, and it should embrace British ingenuity, ability to work hard and make the best products in the world, and spread its own net far and wide to become equal partners with the next generation of trading partners, while seeking to maintain its relationships with historical partners. Britain should never beg for trade, nor should it bow to pressure to be a subservient partner. That said, it should also never seek to dominate a partnership, nor leverage a partner for lopsided gain.

A new paradigm in capitalism is needed in the world IF we are ever going to succeed in maintaining and growing the global economy, and serving the needs of its seven billion plus population. It is all well and good siphoning off the riches of earth to the highest bidder, but then we need wars to redress balances, and revolutions to overthrow tyrants. Both things should be things of the past, events from which we have already learned, and to which we should have no need to return. Britain has an opportunity. The only question now is will it take that opportunity or will it squander it. The cynical money will be on squander, and it may even be the smart money, but I have to hope that one day, a nation with the history, intelligence and will that zbritain surely has, will lead the world away from the abyss to which it is inexorably marching and towards a brighter, more egalitarian and democratic future, where the needs of people are placed ahead of the need for profit, but also where profit is not a dirty word but a positive statement of worth for all involved in its creation.

I live in hope.

Very good post.
 
If you take the emotion out of it, it is a simple question: Do you want to control your own destiny, warts and all, or do you want your destiny tied to the vagaries of over two dozen other disparate countries over whom you have almost zero control?

Unwinding any system, and the change required to do it, is almost always going to be considered more difficult and stressful than hanging your hat on the status quo and accepting your future as a fait accompli. While nationalism has become co-opted and bastardized into something to be feared, it shouldn't be feared, but embraced....but not in the manner in which it has been co-opted. Accordingly, before speaking n those terms, one has to return to the simpler, more refined definition of nationalism.

IF Britain can, as it has fought to do for millennia, stand on its own two feet, it should. It should embrace the democratic process and all it entails. It should return the power of the country to the people who have never seriously had it, and it should embrace British ingenuity, ability to work hard and make the best products in the world, and spread its own net far and wide to become equal partners with the next generation of trading partners, while seeking to maintain its relationships with historical partners. Britain should never beg for trade, nor should it bow to pressure to be a subservient partner. That said, it should also never seek to dominate a partnership, nor leverage a partner for lopsided gain.

A new paradigm in capitalism is needed in the world IF we are ever going to succeed in maintaining and growing the global economy, and serving the needs of its seven billion plus population. It is all well and good siphoning off the riches of earth to the highest bidder, but then we need wars to redress balances, and revolutions to overthrow tyrants. Both things should be things of the past, events from which we have already learned, and to which we should have no need to return. Britain has an opportunity. The only question now is will it take that opportunity or will it squander it. The cynical money will be on squander, and it may even be the smart money, but I have to hope that one day, a nation with the history, intelligence and will that zbritain surely has, will lead the world away from the abyss to which it is inexorably marching and towards a brighter, more egalitarian and democratic future, where the needs of people are placed ahead of the need for profit, but also where profit is not a dirty word but a positive statement of worth for all involved in its creation.

I live in hope.

It's possible to imagine any number of warm fuzzy destinations for the Brexit bus, if you ignore the people driving it.
 
Very good post.
Agreed - nice and calm analysis

I also like the one that pointed out that people do not know the outcomes of leaving - but we did have in excess of 40 years experience to base our views on where we were going by staying in the EU
 
Agreed - nice and calm analysis

I also like the one that pointed out that people do not know the outcomes of leaving - but we did have in excess of 40 years experience to base our views on where we were going by staying in the EU
Hello mate, in an attempt to move the discussion from the abstract and the bullshit to the specific
would you be so kind as to allow me to put you on the spot?
What do you think the final settlement will look like?
What final settlement do you want ( if different from the above)?
How long will it take?
What are your red lines? What would be unacceptable to you in any final settlement?
If you felt the government was moving towards an unacceptable settlement would you oppose it and would you consider this to be your patriotic duty?
Thanking you in advance.
 
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I take it you gain some comfort from this, ignoring the subtle change in the comment from Adam Fleming from agreeing principles for a deal to doing a deal. What that nice Mr Bernier said, was that he outlined some of the very damaging consequences of the United Kingdom leaving the Union without an agreement – chaos at the borders, supply problems for the UK, particularly in fresh produce, and serious disruption to air traffic. While these problems would also affect the Union, the 27 Member States would continue to benefit from the single market, i.e. from cross-border trade without formalities, and from free trade agreements concluded with over 60 third countries, whereas the United Kingdom for its part would have rebuild its entire regulatory edifice. Oh, and that in the negotiation, the ‘red line’ for the Union is represented by the UK’s fulfilment of its financial commitments undertaken as a Member State.
 
Latest lol-worthy attempt to clutch straws by bitter remainers is to claim the voting system was hacked. BBC article cites the bloke who says this also saying there is "no hard and fast" evidence this happened. That I assume means no evidence.
 
If you take the emotion out of it, it is a simple question: Do you want to control your own destiny, warts and all, or do you want your destiny tied to the vagaries of over two dozen other disparate countries over whom you have almost zero control?

Unwinding any system, and the change required to do it, is almost always going to be considered more difficult and stressful than hanging your hat on the status quo and accepting your future as a fait accompli. While nationalism has become co-opted and bastardized into something to be feared, it shouldn't be feared, but embraced....but not in the manner in which it has been co-opted. Accordingly, before speaking n those terms, one has to return to the simpler, more refined definition of nationalism.

IF Britain can, as it has fought to do for millennia, stand on its own two feet, it should. It should embrace the democratic process and all it entails. It should return the power of the country to the people who have never seriously had it, and it should embrace British ingenuity, ability to work hard and make the best products in the world, and spread its own net far and wide to become equal partners with the next generation of trading partners, while seeking to maintain its relationships with historical partners. Britain should never beg for trade, nor should it bow to pressure to be a subservient partner. That said, it should also never seek to dominate a partnership, nor leverage a partner for lopsided gain.

A new paradigm in capitalism is needed in the world IF we are ever going to succeed in maintaining and growing the global economy, and serving the needs of its seven billion plus population. It is all well and good siphoning off the riches of earth to the highest bidder, but then we need wars to redress balances, and revolutions to overthrow tyrants. Both things should be things of the past, events from which we have already learned, and to which we should have no need to return. Britain has an opportunity. The only question now is will it take that opportunity or will it squander it. The cynical money will be on squander, and it may even be the smart money, but I have to hope that one day, a nation with the history, intelligence and will that zbritain surely has, will lead the world away from the abyss to which it is inexorably marching and towards a brighter, more egalitarian and democratic future, where the needs of people are placed ahead of the need for profit, but also where profit is not a dirty word but a positive statement of worth for all involved in its creation.

I live in hope.

So under that logic you will be looking to see the 50 States in the US going it alone? Running themselves?

Or is it just ok for you to see unity as strength?
 
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