Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[The perfect fumble]

That is where "the people" come in.

Who will bring about this?....

but I have to hope that one day, a nation with the history, intelligence and will that britain surely has, will lead the world away from the abyss to which it is inexorably marching and towards a brighter, more egalitarian and democratic future, where the needs of people are placed ahead of the need for profit, but also where profit is not a dirty word but a positive statement of worth for all involved in its creation.

And you think Brexit is part of that process? I don't need to piss on your "brighter, more egalitarian and democratic future" that job is already taken.....

 

[mcfc1632]

Hello mate, in an attempt to move the discussion from the abstract and the bullshit to the specific
would you be so kind as to allow me to put you on the spot?
What do you think the final settlement will look like?
What final settlement do you want ( if different from the above)?
How long will it take?
What are your red lines? What would be unacceptable to you in any final settlement?
If you felt the government was moving towards an unacceptable settlement would you oppose it and would you consider this to be your patriotic duty?
Thanking you in advance.

I will get around to replying to this - unfortunately not got time to do so at the moment.

 

[mcfc1632]

Irony.

Where you get it wrong - IMHO - along with MP Fumble etc. is that those of us that are trying to discuss the imminent events and move on from the outcome of 23/06, have no interest in debating with that 'collective'.

We do not seek to 'persuade' your cadre of anything - why would we waste our time seeking to do that. We post about the subject of this thread's title and look to the future - we seek to consider the options of how things might unfold.

It is not our fault that the members of the collective cannot stop themselves from preventing such debate with the constant negative and ill-thought through quips and silly gifs as they seek to keep everyone in the summer of '16.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I will get around to replying to this - unfortunately not got time to do so at the moment.

Yet you had time to post this.......

Where you get it wrong - IMHO - along with MP Fumble etc. is that those of us that are trying to discuss the imminent events and move on from the outcome of 23/06, have no interest in debating with that 'collective'.

We do not seek to 'persuade' your cadre of anything - why would we waste our time seeking to do that. We post about the subject of this thread's title and look to the future - we seek to consider the options of how things might unfold.

It is not our fault that the members of the collective cannot stop themselves from preventing such debate with the constant negative and ill-thought through quips and silly gifs as they seek to keep everyone in the summer of '16.

 

[stonerblue]

Yet you had time to post this.......

In his defence, the reply too me was just a collection of letters randomly banged out. Couldn't have taken more than a minute.

 

[inbetween]

I take it you gain some comfort from this, ignoring the subtle change in the comment from Adam Fleming from agreeing principles for a deal to doing a deal. What that nice Mr Bernier said, was that he outlined some of the very damaging consequences of the United Kingdom leaving the Union without an agreement – chaos at the borders, supply problems for the UK, particularly in fresh produce, and serious disruption to air traffic. While these problems would also affect the Union, the 27 Member States would continue to benefit from the single market, i.e. from cross-border trade without formalities, and from free trade agreements concluded with over 60 third countries, whereas the United Kingdom for its part would have rebuild its entire regulatory edifice. Oh, and that in the negotiation, the ‘red line’ for the Union is represented by the UK’s fulfilment of its financial commitments undertaken as a Member State.

Things like air traffic are not going to change, all it takes is a transitionary agreement for the UK to continue to remain within the single sky agreement as part of Eurocontrol.

Norway, Switzerland, Ukraine and others not in the EU are members so ceasing to have a political union does not mean we have to cease working together.

 

[The perfect fumble]

In his defence, the reply too me was just a collection of letters randomly banged out. Couldn't have taken more than a minute.

He doesn't like where this is heading. With the referendum battle won he suspects the war may be lost. Whether your average remainer gets on board this process is immaterial, what we're seeing is power draining away from the leave voters to the very forces they stuck two fingers to last summer.

As Nigel Farage stated in a rare moment of clarity....

"Lower economic growth is a price worth paying to radically cut immigration."

Well we now know that's not going to happen. Davis has been quite clear about that, the economy comes first and the economy needs immigrants and not just doctors, nurses, footballers and software engineers, but plumbers and crop pickers and Uncle Tom Cobley and all. There's a whiff of betrayal in the air. There are very powerful forces at work who stand to lose from Brexit and they've made the consequences of not getting what they want very clear to the tin foil lady. Every backtrack by May and her merry men is in response to these forces. If, as seems likely, this process drags on through an extended "interim" period", with levels of immigration unaffected now and for the foreseeable future, regardless of our much hyped "controls", with the UK shadowing the EU as much as required to maintain some form of single market access (on terms dictated by the twenty seven), with a sizeable chunk of change sent to Brussels for the privilege and the Polish plumber still living next door, which of the two camps, leave or remain, will feel the most betrayed?

 

[CitizenTID]

This is pathetic now if it wasn't already (Russia "hacked" EU ref):
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...t-says/ar-BBzJylQ?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

Never heard from such an amount of whinging, toy-throwing adult babies surrounding anything else before. Not a dig at those that didn't get the outcome they wanted, just some people won't let it go.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

This is pathetic now if it wasn't already (Russia "hacked" EU ref):
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...t-says/ar-BBzJylQ?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

Never heard from such an amount of whinging, toy-throwing adult babies surrounding anything else before. Not a dig at those that didn't get the outcome they wanted, just some people won't let it go.

As it doesn't say what you're implying it does, I presume you've not read it?

 

[steviemc]

There are very powerful forces at work who stand to lose from Brexit and they've made the consequences of not getting what they want very clear to the tin foil lady.

And there we have the overwhelming reason why you're shitting yourself about us leaving.

Some of us stand up to any type of bullying, and we'll be a stronger UK for doing so.

 

[smudgedj]

This is pathetic now if it wasn't already (Russia "hacked" EU ref):
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...t-says/ar-BBzJylQ?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

Never heard from such an amount of whinging, toy-throwing adult babies surrounding anything else before. Not a dig at those that didn't get the outcome they wanted, just some people won't let it go.

More likely the site couldn't take the traffic.
I also like 'MPs were deeply concerned about the allegations of foreign interference in last year’s Brexit vote' that would be about the American President threatening/promising us we 'would be at the back of the queue' then.

 

[The perfect fumble]

And there we have the overwhelming reason why you're shitting yourself about us leaving.

Some of us stand up to any type of bullying, and we'll be a stronger UK for doing so.

I've no idea what you're on about.

 

[CitizenTID]

As it doesn't say what you're implying it does, I presume you've not read it?

'Brexit vote may have been hacked' is what they use on the msn homepage (cycling news articles thing). I read half of the article as the rest wasn't worth the time but I imagine they use the term "hacked" as a catch-all for the layman.

 

[mcfc1632]

Yet you had time to post this.......

In his defence, the reply too me was just a collection of letters randomly banged out. Couldn't have taken more than a minute.

You and fumble really are a couple of right shallow wankers - IMHO.

I should not be surprised that people who have made no contribution to this thread apart from glib posts or cut and paste pathetic gifs would not understand the difference between the level of objectivity, thinking and content required to answer Len's request and the level of effort needed to expose you 2 as a pair of utterly vacuous pricks

TBF Len and myself cross swords on this thread but at least I give him a level of respect for his contributions - whereas I am unaware of either of you having made any worthwhile contribution. Therefore, when I have time I will answer his question(s).

To answer Len's question(s) I do need to do some in-depth thinking and separate my 'desires' from my 'expectations' - to answer it properly will actually take some effort and I am on a family holiday and as it is Thursday off to play golf - whereas to make you 2 look like idiots all I have to do is quote your own posts for people to read.

Edit to say:

Fumble, Stonerblue - let's see you answer Len's question(s) - go on and show the forum if you actually have any substance behind all the shallow and lazy posts and gifs we have so far been restricted to seeing.

We can then compare the analysis and judge the quality - go on - or do you not have any capability for objectivity and analysis?

 

[The perfect fumble]

You and fumble really are a couple of right shallow wankers - IMHO.

I should not be surprised that people who have made no contribution to this thread apart from glib posts or cut and paste pathetic gifs would not understand the difference between the level of objectivity, thinking and content required to answer Len's request and the level of effort needed to expose you 2 as a pair of utterly vacuous pricks

TBF Len and myself cross swords on this thread but at least I give him a level of respect for his contributions - whereas I am unaware of either of you having made any worthwhile contribution. Therefore, when I have time I will answer his question(s).

To answer Len's question(s) I do need to do some in-depth thinking and separate my 'desires' from my 'expectations' - to answer it properly will actually take some effort and I am on a family holiday and as it is Thursday off to play golf - whereas to make you 2 look like idiots all I have to do is quote your own posts for people to read.

Edit to say:

Fumble, Stonerblue - let's see you answer Len's question(s) - go on and show the forum if you actually have any substance behind all the shallow and lazy posts and gifs we have so far been restricted to seeing.

We can then compare the analysis and judge the quality - go on - or do you not have any capability for objectivity and analysis?

Stop cluttering this thread with half arsed bluff and bluster. You accuse remainers of talking to themselves while you continue to talk to yourself.

 

[stonerblue]

You and fumble really are a couple of right shallow wankers - IMHO.

I should not be surprised that people who have made no contribution to this thread apart from glib posts or cut and paste pathetic gifs would not understand the difference between the level of objectivity, thinking and content required to answer Len's request and the level of effort needed to expose you 2 as a pair of utterly vacuous pricks

TBF Len and myself cross swords on this thread but at least I give him a level of respect for his contributions - whereas I am unaware of either of you having made any worthwhile contribution. Therefore, when I have time I will answer his question(s).

To answer Len's question(s) I do need to do some in-depth thinking and separate my 'desires' from my 'expectations' - to answer it properly will actually take some effort and I am on a family holiday and as it is Thursday off to play golf - whereas to make you 2 look like idiots all I have to do is quote your own posts for people to read.

Edit to say:

Fumble, Stonerblue - let's see you answer Len's question(s) - go on and show the forum if you actually have any substance behind all the shallow and lazy posts and gifs we have so far been restricted to seeing.

We can then compare the analysis and judge the quality - go on - or do you not have any capability for objectivity and analysis?

'Wanker', 'prick' and 'idiot' eh? If only i was as clever as you..

 

[The perfect fumble]

'Wanker', 'prick' and 'idiot' eh? If only i was as clever as you..

His puffed up pomposity is laughable in light of his reply to me....

Fumble, I decline to break your post down and respond to it section by section. The reason being that what would be in it for me?

He's a busted flush best ignored.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

His puffed up pomposity is laughable in light of his reply to me....


He's a busted flush best ignored.

Biggest problem he's got is that he HAS to be right. It's what all ardent Brexiteers have in common. I don't say that to be provocative or controversial but; if we imagine a future under 'Brexit' that is full of blue sky and sunshine, increased wealth of the nation, public services to be proud of and a collaborative and engaging relationship, not only with Europe but the rest of the world, then the 'remainers' wither on the vine. If, on the other hand, it all gets much much worse, living standards decrease, the NHS and education continue to be underfunded, prices keep going up and holidays abroad become unaffordable, the blame can only lie in one place. That is why some leavers cannot, or will not, engage in any conversation about what happens if it goes wrong.

 

[CityStu]

Biggest problem he's got is that he HAS to be right. It's what all ardent Brexiteers have in common. I don't say that to be provocative or controversial but; if we imagine a future under 'Brexit' that is full of blue sky and sunshine, increased wealth of the nation, public services to be proud of and a collaborative and engaging relationship, not only with Europe but the rest of the world, then the 'remainers' wither on the vine. If, on the other hand, it all gets much much worse, living standards decrease, the NHS and education continue to be underfunded, prices keep going up and holidays abroad become unaffordable, the blame can only lie in one place. That is why some leavers cannot, or will not, engage in any conversation about what happens if it goes wrong.

No, were fed up. We had all of those conversations to the point of tedium in the run up to the referendum (and even the immediate aftermath). We've had two extremely lengthy threads full of conversations on that matter and now this one has been created specifically about the exit negotiations, yet some remainers seem intent on continuing to argue that leaving the EU is a bad decision without entertaining any other outlook. It's boring.

Not that some leave voting posters are without blame. There's just incredibly little middle ground for discussion between moderate remain and moderate leave positions when a post from either is jumped on by posters of the opposite extreme. I don't feel like I can debate in this thread anymore because the only people still posting in the thread are never going to entertain my viewpoint because we're polar opposites.

 

[The perfect fumble]

No, were fed up. We had all of those conversations to the point of tedium in the run up to the referendum (and even the immediate aftermath). We've had two extremely lengthy threads full of conversations on that matter and now this one has been created specifically about the exit negotiations, yet some remainers seem intent on continuing to argue that leaving the EU is a bad decision without entertaining any other outlook. It's boring.

Not that some leave voting posters are without blame. There's just incredibly little middle ground for discussion between moderate remain and moderate leave positions when a post from either is jumped on by posters of the opposite extreme. I don't feel like I can debate in this thread anymore because the only people still posting in the thread are never going to entertain my viewpoint because we're polar opposites.

"moderate remain and moderate leave positions" are as meaningless to the Brexit negotiations as polarized ones. In analysing how a negotiation might pan out, you look at what each side wants and the likelihood of achieving them based on a number of factors. If there is a great deal of overlap, meaning one side is happy to concede X in order to bring about Y and the other side wants X conceded in order to grant Y then the negotiations go smoothly and quickly. That is not the case with Brexit, this is not a zero sum game and the opposing camps, in many regards, want things that the other side cannot or will not concede.

The negotiations are further complicated by the negotiators hinterland. When negotiations are concluded successfully for both parties (at least to the satisfaction of those at the table who are intimately involved with the process) those parties have to take the deal they've struck back to the people who sent them there and sell it to them, in our case the British electorate and in the case of the EU the twenty seven remaining members.

The problem we have in the UK is that unrealistic expectations of a good deal have been puffed up, cake and eat it scenarios spun, that haven't the slightest possibility of being delivered and like an over inflated balloon those great expectations must now be deflated, otherwise the final deal cannot be sold to the British people. So, almost on a daily basis, we see significant red lines being blurred or abandoned and promises redefined, all drip, drip of course, otherwise a significant chunk of the leaver vote might twig what's going on.

Len Rum summed up succinctly where he reckons this road is taking us and all the evidence points in that direction, problem with that road is it will lead to a destination that many leavers find unacceptable, consequently no leaver has picked up the baton and critiqued it, not because they can't, but because they daren't without having to accept that all the indicators point to the very real possibility, that our Brexit destination might well be a shitty little place called Betrayal.