Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[Gelsons Dad]

Len making shit up again.
3 years in the EU.
According to whom? Have you even read Article 50?

 

[CityStu]

The article you quote may well resonate with you but it is wrong.
Reducing immigration is a red line and will not be accepted by Leave voters who suddenly become 'realistic' about the outcome of negotiations.
Also the £350M a week to NHS. This is not an issue of the negotiations since the UK will save this money regardless,but the allocation of this cash to the NHS was cynically not adopted as Govt. policy by the
reMAYner.
So the article is wrong on both counts.

I'd say the majority of leave voters were sensible and reasonable and don't equate control with reduction, although most would assume controls would lead to a reduction. If there isn't a reduction and the people want one, they can vote for a party promising that in the next general election.

Similarly on the money for the NHS, the Tories are well within their rights to not take a suggestion by a campaign group as a pledge that they must adopt. And again, if it is something the people want, and it is viable, a party can pop it in their next general election manifesto.

I don't think anyone believes that the deal the Tories may or may not decide with EU will decide or relationship with the EU forevermore.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I've extracted three paragraphs from your post.
"During an 'implementation phase' ( it's not an implementation phase, it's three more years in the EU at least while we carry on negotiating) and yes he did use the word ' could' because they're going to row back in phases, not all at once.
'Those wanting to remain' were not all in favour of uncontrolled immigration , in fact many of them were against it but voted to remain because of economic reasons. But all Remainers will be pissed off that we're out of the EU because of a lie that the electorate were told about reducing immigration to the tens of thousands ( endorsed by May and still official Govt. policy).
" Not one leave voter on here is feeling let down by these announcements' - arguable but I can see where you're coming from. There does seem to be a majority of Leavers on here who are not that concerned that the immigration numbers will not be dramatically reduced but are happy that the big lie won them the ultimate prize of the UK's exit from the EU to satisfy their own reasons for leaving. I would suggest they are not representative of the majority of Leave voters.

I find it strange that Brexiters in here accuse the remainers of being patronising. Yet leaver posters know a huge chunk of the leave vote was generated by a desire to get immigration levels down and now we know it's not going to happen.

Yet our resident Brexiters are relaxed about it, they seem quite happy now to piss on the expectations of those gullible leave voters, clearly they were useful last summer and yes they've been duped but who gives a fuck, right?

 

[The perfect fumble]

I'd say the majority of leave voters were sensible and reasonable and don't equate control with reduction,

Come on, stop kidding yourself, you know that's simply not true.

 

[CityStu]

Come on, stop kidding yourself, you know that's simply not true.

I think most leave voters wanted a reduction in immigration.

However, I think most understood that leaving the EU only gives us back control, not necessarily a reduction.

I think most believe that effective control would result in reduction.

Once out of the EU, it will be possible to vote in a party committed to capping immigration.

 

[Len Rum]

Len making shit up again.
3 years in the EU.
According to whom? Have you even read Article 50?

Alright then five years - two ( Article 50) plus three maybe as a full member or as an associate member subject to most of the EU laws ( sorry for not making myself clearer).

 

[Len Rum]

I'd say the majority of leave voters were sensible and reasonable and don't equate control with reduction, although most would assume controls would lead to a reduction. If there isn't a reduction and the people want one, they can vote for a party promising that in the next general election.

Similarly on the money for the NHS, the Tories are well within their rights to not take a suggestion by a campaign group as a pledge that they must adopt. And again, if it is something the people want, and it is viable, a party can pop it in their next general election manifesto.

I don't think anyone believes that the deal the Tories may or may not decide with EU will decide or relationship with the EU forevermore.

Don't embarass yourself on immigration mate.
Most leave voters assumed significant reduction and that is what they still want.
A general election isn't a single issue vote, so if the Govt. could only guarantee 'control' post Brexit, perhaps a second referendum on the terms of exit would be fairer.
You mention the NHS pledge, reMAYner supposedly set her negotiating strategy on her interpretation of the major issues the electorate voted on in deciding to leave the EU. Well if that pledge on the side of the Vote Leave bus was not a major factor in persuading people to vote leave I'd like to know what was.
Again the failure to deliver this commitment could be included in a referendum on the exit terms.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I think most leave voters wanted a reduction in immigration.

However, I think most understood that leaving the EU only gives us back control, not necessarily a reduction.

I think most believe that effective control would result in reduction.

Once out of the EU, it will be possible to vote in a party committed to capping immigration.

Repeating yourself does not make your post any more plausible.

I think most understood that leaving the EU only gives us back control, not necessarily a reduction.

Again, that is simply not true.

The electorate has already voted in a party committed to capping immigration....The Tories. They have failed miserably because they can't cap immigration from the EU because the EU is wedded to the free movement of labour. So a chunk of the electorate voted leave to give the Tories that control and now David Davis and others have said even with control (thank you very much) there'll be no cap on immigration and your response is...

Once out of the EU, it will be possible to vote in a party committed to capping immigration.

Christ on a bike!

 

[Len Rum]

Yet our resident Brexiters are relaxed about it, they seem quite happy now to piss on the expectations of those gullible leave voters, clearly they were useful last summer and yes they've been duped but who gives a fuck, right?

Bang on the money.
And yet it will be interesting to see the reaction when the red lines of our resident Brexiters are rowed back on.
A few posts back I put forward a scenario for a likely settlement - a ' soft' Brexit based on a comprehensive (ish) trade deal subject to us paying probably the money that should have gone to the NHS ( and some) and favourable treatment for EU immigrants.We would have to accept ECJ rulings on finance,economics,standards,regulations etc.Maybe setting up a separate supranational court could make this more palatable to the UK.We can do our own trade deals and become ' GLOBAL' Britain again.
' Win win' scenario for UK and EU.
Except for some of our resident Brexiters this deal could become a problem particularly regarding continuing payments ( May has agreed this is possible in principle), still not 'completely' sovereign and not in 'TOTAL'control of EU immigration.
Now those concessions will really make our resident Brexiter's pips squeak.
I think we will still need a crisis before this is seen through to a conclusion.
I can't see May surviving it.
My prediction is that the new Tory PM will be 'six jobs' George.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Bang on the money.
And yet it will be interesting to see the reaction when the red lines of our resident Brexiters are rowed back on.
A few posts back I put forward a scenario for a likely settlement - a ' soft' Brexit based on a comprehensive (ish) trade deal subject to us paying probably the money that should have gone to the NHS ( and some) and favourable treatment for EU immigrants.We would have to accept ECJ rulings on finance,economics,standards,regulations etc.Maybe setting up a separate supranational court could make this more palatable to the UK.We can do our own trade deals and become ' GLOBAL' Britain again.
' Win win' scenario for UK and EU.
Except for some of our resident Brexiters this deal could become a problem particularly regarding continuing payments ( May has agreed this is possible in principle), still not 'completely' sovereign and not in 'TOTAL'control of EU immigration.
Now those concessions will really make our resident Brexiter's pips squeak.
I think we will still need a crisis before this is seen through to a conclusion.
I can't see May surviving it.
My prediction is that the new Tory PM will be 'six jobs' George.

George has kept his hat in the ring, so he clearly thinks there's life after Dave, but as I said in my reply to you there's a lot of unknown unknowns and events dear boy between now and the end off the road.

I agreed with your analysis in that post with the exception of a Conservative split, the Tories might be able to run their public school tuck shop and little else but when it comes to power, how to get it and how to keep it, it's in their DNA.

The media are vital to all this, Murdoch has been to No 10 more than once since May slunk in and it's been noticeable that the gutter press have crucified UKIP since the referendum, herding the disparate right in to the Tory paddock. That's pivotal because when the betrayal on immigration finally sinks in UKIP must be in such a weakened state that they can no longer function as a rallying point. For that reason and many others May must keeps the media onside, especially now that the phoney war is over and the multitude of disappointments and retreats begins. From now on the twenty seven will be driving the process and as the red, white and blue Brexit gets covered in merde and scheisse it'll be vital to keep Murdoch and Dacre lying to the British people.

The BBC are neutered they'll go with the flow.

 

[Gaylord du Bois]

George has kept his hat in the ring, so he clearly thinks there's life after Dave, but as I said in my reply to you there's a lot of unknown unknowns and events dear boy between now and the end off the road.

I agreed with your analysis in that post with the exception of a Conservative split, the Tories might be able to run their public school tuck shop and little else but when it comes to power, how to get it and how to keep it, it's in their DNA.

The media are vital to all this, Murdoch has been to No 10 more than once since May slunk in and it's been noticeable that the gutter press have crucified UKIP since the referendum, herding the disparate right in to the Tory paddock. That's pivotal because when the betrayal on immigration finally sinks in UKIP must be in such a weakened state that they can no longer function as a rallying point. For that reason and many others May must keeps the media onside, especially now that the phoney war is over and the multitude of disappointments and retreats begins. From now on the twenty seven will be driving the process and as the red, white and blue Brexit gets covered in merde and scheisse it'll be vital to keep Murdoch and Dacre lying to the British people.

The BBC are neutered they'll go with the flow.

Viva la resistance.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

The thing that I find most annoying about the whole situation is that is seems the majority of remainer's would be happier talking the UK down to the point it all goes to rat shit, then saying "I told you so", instead of accepting the democratic vote, getting on with it and making it work.

 

[bugsyblue]

The thing that I find most annoying about the whole situation is that is seems the majority of remainer's would be happier talking the UK down to the point it all goes to rat shit, then saying "I told you so", instead of accepting the democratic vote, getting on with it and making it work.

The thing that I find most annoying about the whole situation is that is seems the majority
of leavers would be happier burying their head in the sand and seeing the country go to shit instead of accepting that they made one colosal mistake and holding their hands up and admiting they got it wrong/were lied to by the political careerists that have absolute no credible Brexit plan.

 

[Len Rum]

George has kept his hat in the ring, so he clearly thinks there's life after Dave, but as I said in my reply to you there's a lot of unknown unknowns and events dear boy between now and the end off the road.

I agreed with your analysis in that post with the exception of a Conservative split, the Tories might be able to run their public school tuck shop and little else but when it comes to power, how to get it and how to keep it, it's in their DNA.

The media are vital to all this, Murdoch has been to No 10 more than once since May slunk in and it's been noticeable that the gutter press have crucified UKIP since the referendum, herding the disparate right in to the Tory paddock. That's pivotal because when the betrayal on immigration finally sinks in UKIP must be in such a weakened state that they can no longer function as a rallying point. For that reason and many others May must keeps the media onside, especially now that the phoney war is over and the multitude of disappointments and retreats begins. From now on the twenty seven will be driving the process and as the red, white and blue Brexit gets covered in merde and scheisse it'll be vital to keep Murdoch and Dacre lying to the British people.

The BBC are neutered they'll go with the flow.

You know what the funny thing about all this is.
It's just possible that because of the compromises the Government will have to make that when the final deal is struck Remainers might be more satisfied with the outcome than Leavers!
Isn't life strange?

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

The thing that I find most annoying about the whole situation is that is seems the majority
of leavers would be happier burying their head in the sand and seeing the country go to shit instead of accepting that they made one colosal mistake and holding their hands up and admiting they got it wrong/were lied to by the political careerists that have absolute no credible Brexit plan.

Both remain and leave campaigns were rife with inaccuracies and down right lies.

If we'd all voted remain it would have been a clear mandate for Brussels to impose tighter controls on finance, agriculture, retail, freedom of movement, trade, etc. A vote for leave was a gamble on a potentially brighter future with the freedom to control our own destiny; a once in a generation chance to break free from the shackles that are EU finance. As the 5th largest economy (by GDP) in the World, Europe need us more than we need Europe. Brexit isn't going to be an easy ride by any stretch of the imagination, but we are were we are with it and we just need to get on with it and stop moaning about the result of the referendum.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Are you waving or drowning? I can never tell with these posts.

This is quite an emotive subject isn't it?

 

[The perfect fumble]

You know what the funny thing about all this is.
It's just possible that because of the compromises the Government will have to make that when the final deal is struck Remainers might be more satisfied with the outcome than Leavers!
Isn't life strange?

Historical determinism mate! Had to blow the dust off that one! Not used it since falling over in the yard of ale competition in the student union bar in 1977, but I always knew it would come in handy.

 

[cibaman]

Bang on the money.
And yet it will be interesting to see the reaction when the red lines of our resident Brexiters are rowed back on.
A few posts back I put forward a scenario for a likely settlement - a ' soft' Brexit based on a comprehensive (ish) trade deal subject to us paying probably the money that should have gone to the NHS ( and some) and favourable treatment for EU immigrants.We would have to accept ECJ rulings on finance,economics,standards,regulations etc.Maybe setting up a separate supranational court could make this more palatable to the UK.We can do our own trade deals and become ' GLOBAL' Britain again.
' Win win' scenario for UK and EU.
Except for some of our resident Brexiters this deal could become a problem particularly regarding continuing payments ( May has agreed this is possible in principle), still not 'completely' sovereign and not in 'TOTAL'control of EU immigration.
Now those concessions will really make our resident Brexiter's pips squeak.
I think we will still need a crisis before this is seen through to a conclusion.
I can't see May surviving it.
My prediction is that the new Tory PM will be 'six jobs' George.

There may well be a mini crisis but eventually the more extreme Brexiteer Tory MPs will back whatever deal May comes up with. The nightmare scenario for them is the 2nd referendum. Once we're legally out of the EU there's no going back. Any deal can then be unpicked over time.

 

[Vic]

goo.gl/aCF8NU

Brexit isn't going to be an easy ride by any stretch of the imagination, but we are were we are with it and we just need to get on with it and stop moaning about the result of the referendum.

If it helps keep the thread shorter, posts that say "get on with it" when the argument is about how are pointless. And no-one's moaning now about the result, just about the consequences - "not an easy ride" hardly cuts it.

goo.gl/aCF8NU

 

[blueinsa]

Turned into a online counselling session this as Fumble and Len just reassure each other they are right over and over and over again.